Very few domesticated animal will breed true to the species after some generations. It's natural for human to selectively breed them for certain desirable quality, hybrid or not. Look at our dog, hourse, cow, tomato, pepper, angel fish, discus, red devel, gold fish, fancy guppy . . . .etc In order to breed true to the species, you have to collect wild species from time to time and we may be doing more harm to the species than domesticating it.Harry Tolen said:
black convict, bloodparrot crossbreed kind question
- Thread starter raift
- Start date
Most fish we keep are not "domesticated" by definition.
But domestication is a far cry from hybridization, which is where two DIFFERENT species are crossed, and often fish from two different genus, such as in the case of the mule. I dont think its entirely WRONG, since it does happen in nature and can contribute to evolution, but I think for the sake of the aquarium hobby hybridization should be kept to a minimum, especially with two species of fish that produce hybrids that are hard to identify as hybrid (as is the usual case with african cichlids).
-Diana
But domestication is a far cry from hybridization, which is where two DIFFERENT species are crossed, and often fish from two different genus, such as in the case of the mule. I dont think its entirely WRONG, since it does happen in nature and can contribute to evolution, but I think for the sake of the aquarium hobby hybridization should be kept to a minimum, especially with two species of fish that produce hybrids that are hard to identify as hybrid (as is the usual case with african cichlids).
-Diana
whats so wrong about hybridization? all it does is creat a new and stronger species. I have a convict x firemouth hybrid and he is the healthiest thing in my tank. he was the only one that did not catch ich. he has the body of a firemouth but the coloration of a convict. I also had a convict jack dempsy mix. by the way arnt flower horns jack dempsy red devil mix and arnt blood parrots red devil gold severum mix. and both of these two cichlids are great. My frend crossbreed a green texas cichlid with a green terror. He called the offspring "green texas terrors" :sim: anyway if they do crossbreed THEN BY ALL MEANS LET IT HAPPEN!!!!!
Flowerhorns are an abomination to the cichlid hobby. Show me scientific proof that the hybrid is a stronger species. The fact that you friends fish didn't get ich is not proof. I own lots of pure bred species that have never been sick. Bootom line is keep what you want. Your tank. As for "LET IT HAPPEN"...the real problem are the people who try and "MAKE IT HAPPEN".
Mojo is right. Although there is a phenomenon known as "hybrid vigor", it is limited in scope and doesn't last past the first generation. Succeeding generations are genetically unstable, subject to deformities, and generally have a shorter and less healthy life than their purebred counterparts.
The biggest argument against hybridization is that, over time, the progeny get released back into the hobby under false names, and these low-quality fish will eventually wind up polluting the bloodlines of the purebred species they most resemble. People who say "oh, I'm just going to keep them for myself" almost never do...either they wind up with too many fry and take some to an LFS, or they give some to friends; and once they leave the original chain of ownership these fish are almost never labeled correctly and that's where the real damage is done. If you see a cichlid that is not that old (here's a hint: most large cichlids will live 15+ years with proper care) and yet is showing signs of age (a hunched back, slightly "off" dimensions, etc.), odds are that it is an unidentified hybrid. I know I've seen examples of that here on this website, from people who post pictures of their fish while having no idea that the fish is almost certainly a second or third generation hybrid.
Flowerhorns are another perfect example of this. "High-quality" flowerhorns are produced by re-crossing the source species in Asia, not by breeding flowerhorn to flowerhorn here in the U.S., because the latter produces batches of fry with a wide range of characteristics. Unfortunately, some of these wind up looking just enough like Trimacs that they are then sold as such, and as a result it's becoming increasingly difficult to find healthy purebred Trimacs.
There are also species (such as Paretroplus menarambo) that are actually extinct in the wild because of environmental destruction. Should those habitats ever be restored, the only hope of re-settling the fish in the wild would be to use domestic stock. If those stocks were ruined with happy-go-lucky hybridization, the opportunity to save the species would be lost.
One would hope that the arguments against hybridization were clear enough that people would avoid it; after all, there are a huge number of species available that will provide a lot of challenges and rewards breeding true (just look at emg's ram spawning thread for a perfect example of this). Sadly, that does not seem to be the case, which is why more experienced hobbyists continue to try to discourage the practice of hybridization whenever they can.
The biggest argument against hybridization is that, over time, the progeny get released back into the hobby under false names, and these low-quality fish will eventually wind up polluting the bloodlines of the purebred species they most resemble. People who say "oh, I'm just going to keep them for myself" almost never do...either they wind up with too many fry and take some to an LFS, or they give some to friends; and once they leave the original chain of ownership these fish are almost never labeled correctly and that's where the real damage is done. If you see a cichlid that is not that old (here's a hint: most large cichlids will live 15+ years with proper care) and yet is showing signs of age (a hunched back, slightly "off" dimensions, etc.), odds are that it is an unidentified hybrid. I know I've seen examples of that here on this website, from people who post pictures of their fish while having no idea that the fish is almost certainly a second or third generation hybrid.
Flowerhorns are another perfect example of this. "High-quality" flowerhorns are produced by re-crossing the source species in Asia, not by breeding flowerhorn to flowerhorn here in the U.S., because the latter produces batches of fry with a wide range of characteristics. Unfortunately, some of these wind up looking just enough like Trimacs that they are then sold as such, and as a result it's becoming increasingly difficult to find healthy purebred Trimacs.
There are also species (such as Paretroplus menarambo) that are actually extinct in the wild because of environmental destruction. Should those habitats ever be restored, the only hope of re-settling the fish in the wild would be to use domestic stock. If those stocks were ruined with happy-go-lucky hybridization, the opportunity to save the species would be lost.
One would hope that the arguments against hybridization were clear enough that people would avoid it; after all, there are a huge number of species available that will provide a lot of challenges and rewards breeding true (just look at emg's ram spawning thread for a perfect example of this). Sadly, that does not seem to be the case, which is why more experienced hobbyists continue to try to discourage the practice of hybridization whenever they can.
HAHAHAHAHA
sometimes i think your people care more about arguing with each other than whatever it is your acctually arguing about.
im not even going to get into this one because its 90% opinion from both sides anyhow. and for some reason it reminds me of a jerry springer episode where people didnt want white and black people to have babies together or something dumb like that.
sometimes i think your people care more about arguing with each other than whatever it is your acctually arguing about.
im not even going to get into this one because its 90% opinion from both sides anyhow. and for some reason it reminds me of a jerry springer episode where people didnt want white and black people to have babies together or something dumb like that.
jadefoodog said:
Let's see, we post factual information and you come on with the jester approach. You are correct. DON'T get into it. :dance2:
ah dont get sore . i think both sides are more conserned with arguing than they are the fish. to me looks like you guys are all saying the same exact thing over and over simply reworded (both sides) im probably sure that if the original poster has the patience to keep reading the tread (i some how doubt this) hes probably going to be intimidated by the hostility and stop asking questions all together.
i know the origional attack was ment to be agaisnt flowerhorn but you guys bassically hijacked the thread to have yourselves a self glory flame war.
i know just like 90% of people on the internet you have to at all cost prove your the one thats right. but how is that worth it if youve scared off the very person who needed help.
you can be hostile twards me all you like but some people havent had the internet since its infancy and are used to people acting with a little less hostility in real life.
oh and as for your "factual information" ive only heard "hybrids have defects , and hybrids have a shorter lifespan." if you are so agaisnt these hybrids then you would not let it happen in your tanks so i doubt this is comming from first hand exsperince. also there were no links to scientific studies in any of the post. so how did you happen on this factual information that seems to have come out of nowhere. the only thing resembling fact is your oppsitions statement that "his hybrid did not catch the same outbreak as the rest of his tank." now while this isnt growndbreaking evidence that hybrids could survive the most extreme conditions, but it does slightly go agaisnt your claim that they are death on a timer, or abominations. but still its an isolated case. outside of that nobodys given any concrete evidence of anything. your basically just saying
"this is how it is, and its that way because i say so"
and lets even go as far to say as you heard it from someone who had soemthing like that. still if you havent witnessed it and all the variables that go along with the situation than its not evidence its hearsay and unfounded hearsay.
so please continue with the hostility, and yes i am aware of your fancy title with whatever organization that is and honestly i dont care, its the evidence that matters and ive seen none.
this flame war should have been locked a long time ago
i know the origional attack was ment to be agaisnt flowerhorn but you guys bassically hijacked the thread to have yourselves a self glory flame war.
i know just like 90% of people on the internet you have to at all cost prove your the one thats right. but how is that worth it if youve scared off the very person who needed help.
you can be hostile twards me all you like but some people havent had the internet since its infancy and are used to people acting with a little less hostility in real life.
oh and as for your "factual information" ive only heard "hybrids have defects , and hybrids have a shorter lifespan." if you are so agaisnt these hybrids then you would not let it happen in your tanks so i doubt this is comming from first hand exsperince. also there were no links to scientific studies in any of the post. so how did you happen on this factual information that seems to have come out of nowhere. the only thing resembling fact is your oppsitions statement that "his hybrid did not catch the same outbreak as the rest of his tank." now while this isnt growndbreaking evidence that hybrids could survive the most extreme conditions, but it does slightly go agaisnt your claim that they are death on a timer, or abominations. but still its an isolated case. outside of that nobodys given any concrete evidence of anything. your basically just saying
"this is how it is, and its that way because i say so"
and lets even go as far to say as you heard it from someone who had soemthing like that. still if you havent witnessed it and all the variables that go along with the situation than its not evidence its hearsay and unfounded hearsay.
so please continue with the hostility, and yes i am aware of your fancy title with whatever organization that is and honestly i dont care, its the evidence that matters and ive seen none.
this flame war should have been locked a long time ago
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