Blood Parrot hybrid misinformation

[JimG]

Originally posted by Rare Cichlids
If you read up on them you will see they are not the result of selective line breeding. But instead, as has already been said, the result of a random mutation. There was no methodical line breeding to "create" the blue dempsey. Instead, it was just a chance mutation that appeared in a batch of otherwise normal fry. Tiger did not say he thought BP's were an accidental hybrid. But an accidental mutation like the blue dempsey.

But again blue dempseys can be readily inline bred BDxBD to select for the desirable traits right? Again if BPs were just a chance mutation that occured in a batch of otherwise normal fry of some other single cichlid species they could be readily inline bred or at the very least the traits would be popping up in the species population like they do with the BD. When taxonomists list BDs they don't label them CichlasomaxCichlasoma as they do with BPs, they have a scientific species name, BPs don't and there is a reason for that.

Sometimes in evolution speciation can work quite swiftly, but for a new species to accumulate enough mutations so that it can only hybridize with its parent or cousin stocks rather than breed freely it takes a long time with the mutant offspring population genetically isolated from the stock of origin. We humans designate species through taxonomy previously with anatomical similarities and today even with genetic studies. Sometimes species of the same family surprise us and turn out to be closer related than we thought by being able to produce offspring and scientists even change genus designations over such discoveries.

 

[Haggisman]

Yeah shes gonna save as many of the fry as possible.

Oh and another member has a BPxFiremouth spawning.....wonder what they will turn out like???

 

[JimG]

Originally posted by Tiger15
Blue Dampsey was created by a South American who is ethical enough to tell the truth. BP and FH were Asian creation and for the sake of profit, they never told the truth. BP is probably an accidental mutation like BD and FH is a methodical creation.

Ah so Blue Dempseys aren't for the sake of profit? C'mon.

Actually the Blood Parrot and FlowerHorn progenitors just never gave out any information at all. Though apparently the species used to generate FHs were more closely related genetically than those for BPs.

What I have read is that to produce BPs the 'breeder' must artificially mix the gamates of Red Devils and Severums (or I have heard Midas and Severums) as these species will not breed no matter how long you leave them in a warm tank with wine and nice music.

 

[Rare Cichlids]

Originally posted by JimG
Though I must point out again IF BPs really are just a mutant strain of some other single species why haven't they been inline bred by everyone with a hankerin'? Within mutant lines of fishthe fry readily breed with one another, there is no sterility.

Have you still not read up on BD's? If the BP is infact a mutation like the BD, it would most likely have to go through the long process of crossing a BP back to a Midas, and then getting fish that showed half of the BP traits and then breeding one of those back to the parent BP and getting a certain percentage of BP fry. Don't quote me on that. I'm not entirely sure of the process. But if you do some searching you can find the discussion on BD's about this.

 

[JimG]

Originally posted by thom336
i agree that a large proportion of the males may be infertile (my use of 'may' is becuase i do not have any personal experiance of it). but there are those that are fertile, and so it was an incorrect staement that male BP's are sterile, and i just wanted to get that clear.

Yes and point taken if a case of BPxBP breeding can be verified. Though these cases should they occur are apparently so rare that my use of the qualifier "virtually all" to describe the preponderance of sterile male BPs is still comfortable to me.

 

[JimG]

Originally posted by Rare Cichlids
Have you still not read up on BD's? If the BP is infact a mutation like the BD, it would most likely have to go through the long process of crossing a BP back to a Midas, and then getting fish that showed half of the BP traits and then breeding one of those back to the parent BP and getting a certain percentage of BP fry. Don't quote me on that. I'm not entirely sure of the process. But if you do some searching you can find the discussion on BD's about this.

Too lat Rare Cichlids I quoted ya on it

No sorry I really haven't read up on BDs as yet, though I take the word of those on this forum that they are not hybrids. But then again I also take the word of those same folks who say they BD males aren't sterile either.

Actually if inline breeding for a specific trait or set of traits that appear in a population since those traits are likely to appear in more than one fry from the same parents the most effective way to select for those traits is to then breed pairs of the fry both male and female exhibiting those traits. The parents aren't going to phenotype the traits as they were a surprise in the fry right? Apparently male Severums won't naturally breed with female BPs or at least I have not heard of this occuring and neither will Red Devils (which might just kill their prespective BP lustmuffins since the BPs generally inhereted the Severum temperament) though I have heard of 'breeders' fertilizing BP eggs with Red Devil sperm to produce a 'super parrot' which is as aggressive as a Red Devil and looks a tad more like one.

 

[tomckey]

I just re-joined AC after a while of being away and stumbled upon this discussion. I only skimmed through all the posts so if I repeat someone's information I apologize. I have always been led to believe that one of the "red devil" types (citrinellum or labiatum) was artificially crossed (by stripping eggs and milt, like what is done with goldfish) with a gold severum to create a fish that is sold as a Rose Queen cichlid. I have sold these fish at my store. They are not as fat as Parrots and do not have as exaggerated a facial deformity as parrots. This fish was then crossed (most likely again artificially) with a synspilus, to create the parrot.
As far as breeding parrots together goes, I have had numerous customers report to me that their parrots go through the whole process, only to have eggs that will not hatch (infertile most likely). I did have one customer tell me that his parrots constantly had babies. I offered to buy babies from him but he never brought any to me, and later told me that he lost one of his adults. (I thought he was full of it to begin with). My opinion is that parrots are almost always sterile, but you may rarely find two individuals who are capable of producing offspring together.
With blue dempseys they are most certainly not hybrids (remember a hybrid is when two different specie breed and produce offspring). They are a color mutation of the regular jack dempsey. If you breed two blue dempseys you will not get any offspring as a double dose of the blue gene is lethal. You must breed a regular to a blue, those babies now all carry the blue gene. Then mate a blue dempsey to one who is carrying the gene, and you will get 50% blue dempseys, and 50% who carry the gene. You can also mate two who only carry the gene and you will get 25% who are blue, 50% who look normal but carry the gene and 25% who are normal in every way. For those of you who are familiar with genetics I apologize but after 19 years in a LFS, I have learned never to take for granted what information people know, or don't know.
If anyone knows that any of my information is incorrect please reply back, as I always like to have the most accurate info possible for my customers.
Tom

 

[Rare Cichlids]

Originally posted by tomckey
I just re-joined AC after a while of being away and stumbled upon this discussion. I only skimmed through all the posts so if I repeat someone's information I apologize. I have always been led to believe that one of the "red devil" types (citrinellum or labiatum) was artificially crossed (by stripping eggs and milt, like what is done with goldfish) with a gold severum to create a fish that is sold as a Rose Queen cichlid. I have sold these fish at my store. They are not as fat as Parrots and do not have as exaggerated a facial deformity as parrots. This fish was then crossed (most likely again artificially) with a synspilus, to create the parrot.
Tom

Thats a new one for me Welcome back

 

[JimG]

Originally posted by tomckey
As far as breeding parrots together goes, I have had numerous customers report to me that their parrots go through the whole process, only to have eggs that will not hatch (infertile most likely). I did have one customer tell me that his parrots constantly had babies. I offered to buy babies from him but he never brought any to me, and later told me that he lost one of his adults. (I thought he was full of it to begin with). My opinion is that parrots are almost always sterile, but you may rarely find two individuals who are capable of producing offspring together.
With blue dempseys they are most certainly not hybrids (remember a hybrid is when two different specie breed and produce offspring). They are a color mutation of the regular jack dempsey. If you breed two blue dempseys you will not get any offspring as a double dose of the blue gene is lethal. You must breed a regular to a blue, those babies now all carry the blue gene. Then mate a blue dempsey to one who is carrying the gene, and you will get 50% blue dempseys, and 50% who carry the gene. You can also mate two who only carry the gene and you will get 25% who are blue, 50% who look normal but carry the gene and 25% who are normal in every way. Tom

Wow Tom thanks for the info about Blue Dempsey breeding, interesting! Welcome back BTW, I just found this forum this last week.

I have been doing some brushing up on my biology with a little journal research and it appears that fertile male hybrids between two species are not impossible technically should a very rare mutation occur in the process of meiosis forming the spermatocytes in the hybrid F1 offspring though even if this extremely unlikely circumstance occurs it does not guarantee any fertile males in the F2 population. So if people are claiming to have fertile BP males they might just not be fibbing (or mistaken not taking into account the male convict grinning with satisfaction at the far corner of their BP tank) but it is very very unlikely because BPs are hybrids between two separate species.

I found this interesting journal entry recently supporting what I have stated previously regarding the fertility problem in male hybrids being within the meiosis of sperm cells. This article is even about a fish hybrid -

http://www.unifi.it/unifi/bioveg/Caryo/20255-1-10.html
spermatocytes from the hybrid "tambacu" showed gross meiotic configurations in all cells analyzed. The spermatocytes exhibited a few chromosomes or well synapsed chromosome segments, while many chromosome segments did not have any synapsis. This result, allied to other genetical and cytogenetical evidence, reinforces the hypothesis that the hybrid "tambacu" is sterile.

 

[Rare Cichlids]

Originally posted by JimG


but it is very very unlikely because BPs are hybrids between two separate species.

Uh, your still stating as fact that BP's are hybrid, when the general concensus in this thread is that nobody knows and they are just as likely to be mutations.