Dwarf Rainbow with foot and mouth disease???

[mel_20_20]

Hi Fabio, I'm so sorry for your losses, and to hear that Tommy is sick again. This is very perplexing for sure.

I read your description of the lumps and as I read I had in mind larger, bulging, poorly defined lumps, but I can see that these are small, well defined lumps that are poking up out of the skin and lifting the scale. There is no obvious redness such as is usually present in a bacterial or viral infection of the skin or deeper tissues.

I also do see that he looks like his right eye is bulging. There are several reasons that a fish' eye will bulge, pressure behind the eye due to internal infection, gas bubble disease, and even an internal parasitic infection.

You usually don't think of pop eye resulting from parasitic infection, however, an internal protozoan infestation with nodules or cysts that begin to fill the body cavity could be causing pressure behind the eye.

These bumps emerging through the skin could also be protozoan filled nodules/cysts that are infesting the musculature and deeper tissues. His internal organs may also be involved and contain nodules/cysts.

Of course, this may be some other disease process; it's so hard to make a diagnosis from a photo and information provided by the fishkeeper, but these musings seem logical to me, considering your previous illness in the tank.

I mention nodules or cysts because of your post mortem findings in the previous outbreak of illness in your tank; the nodules that you found and dissected suggest a protozoan of some type at that time, and I lean towards that as a strong possibility here.

It seems logical to me that this parasite may be the source of the illnesses in your fish, though there may be a secondary bacterial infection involved internally, although I don't see the red streaks or blotches characteristic of septicemia. His swollen tummy may also be consistent with an internal parasitic infection. What does his poo look like?

Metronidazole is a good choice for internal parasites and I believe gram positive anaerobic bacterial infections, as well, so it could help on all fronts.

I think I would do the Metonidazole in the food and in the water in the recommended dose. I would try to insure that the water in the tank is pristine.

Seachem recommends dosing the tank every 24 hours just after a 25% water change, but I would do a bigger one than that. The recommended period is 10 days. That's a lot of water changes, but pristine water will help, whatever the problem is. Since he as some holes in his fins it does sound like water quality may be a factor.

What size tank is he in and how many other fish are in there with him? I think you need to treat the whole tank. If he has parasites all the others most likely do as well.

 

[mel_20_20]

Hi Cerianthus, I was typing and didn't see your post before mine. Good questions for Fabio, but did you read his description on the nodule/cysts from one of his deceased fish that he cut open.

Wouldn't fish TB likely have more of the other characteristic signs? Tommy looks well nourished and there's no redness with those bumps.

I'm interested to hear what Fabio can tell us about is params, too.

 

[fabiobruno]

Few questions though.

1. Have you found drop in pH when you came back from month long trip.

2. If so, how low and any detection of NH3/NO2?

3. Have you taken any drastic measures to correct the water condition if water was way off?

4. Just on Colisa? Do you see any other fishes with same/similar symptoms?

5. DO you have q/t and Kanamycin?

6. Do you see any bending (curving) of spine?

7. Does it still have good appetite?

Upon reviewing the pics, I am very convinced this may be due to prolonged exposure to low pH therby inflicting Fish TB infection. Although contagious, I am still standing.
Just be careful with any open cuts on your arm and hand as prevaution.

I could be way off but this seems protrusion of tissues rather than cyst. This brought back memories of fishes when exposed to very low pH for long time.

LMK.

Hi Ceriantus,

First of all I'll answer your questions:

1: No drop of PH, stable at the usual 7.9
2: Ammonia and Nitrites read 0, I haven't checked nitrates
3: No, but I had changed the Filter, I lost the media in the old one but didn't hover the gravel to leave plenty of bacteria, anyway the gourami already have a small lump before I left, now he has 2 big one, plus a couple of very small one, so I see this just as a progression of the same the disease that the precox had before.
4: I had a lump on the boesemans rainbow that is getting better and I think I see a whitish very shallow lump on a cherry barb, but all fish act very fine.
5: I do have QT, no kanamicyn, just metro, minonicyclin, eritromycin (basically maracin and maracin 2).
6: no sign of bending spine
7: Yes good appetite and almost as good as when no sick, just slightly slow and shy.

Shouldn't fish TB lesion be much more red, irregular and big? Shouldn't that disease be much more aggressive? The gourami is still alive and reasonably well after ~35 days.

I went to bed at 2:30 am last night, spend a lot of time reading whatever I found on the web, as you and Mel originally suggested the microsporidian seems to be the most likely cause, the only difference I notice is that in literature that is described to be much aggressive and fast, I haven't seen any lump to burst and spores to come out.
When I opened the precox's nodule I've noticed what looked like jelly eggs or almost transparent fat, anyway it was definitively a cyst.

I've given everyone some of the medicated food prepared yesterday (2gr of flakes with 20mg of metro), I've given more than 1/10 of it. Everyone had a bit, the gourami maybe less and from the tank bottom, after a couple of minutes... not sure if the metro was still in the food at that point...

 

[fabiobruno]

Hi Mel,

The poo looks as usual.
I'll add the metro in the water later today. And I'll keep the water pristine to avoid the spores spread.

It is a 95 lt. (~25 gallons) tank and excluding Tommy I now have 1 thick lipped gourami, 5 silver tipped tetra, 2 cherry barb, 2 boeseman's rainbow. There are plants and boogwood.

 

[Cerianthus]

Good thing you are doing massive reading as such knowledge will become valuable asset down the road.
Do not just search for it within hobby level but also read in tems of microbiology/histopathology/pharmacology, piscine pathology, parasitology(?), etc, etc.

It may not be easy to understand fully such abstracts and its contents but eventually you should get the general ideas or you can study harder. Who know? It can develop into your career in research???

As long as no NH3/NO2, dont worry about so called pristine water as it is far more important to keep water stable. Drastic water changes IS NOT one of the way to stablize water condition, especially with open wound. Look up osmosis/diffusion gradient.

Although gourami has different respiratory system than other fishes, could this be a case of prolonged exposure to high pH/high mineral contents?
I guess many will argue fish can adapt as some does but your fish is not feeling well at this moment. Something to think about????
************
How about trying this as I have learn such similar/same symptoms healed itself when ideal water condition was provided but returned as water condition deteriorated beyond thier ideal condition.

Set up Q/T with distilled water or any other bottled water with pH close to neutral (7) and handful of gravel/atificial plant from main tank. If your room temp is pretty steady, you may not need heater.
Even couple of gallons in bucket will do. If you have internal filter or air stone, it will assist. Accliminate the gourami in q/t and feed sparingly. Change water as needed but in small volume per wc.

If fish does not get better and remain pretty much the same for few weeks, I would then try using Minocycline since Kana is not avail.

This is not one of symptoms of microsporidian at least in my view and from EXPERIENCES.

Good Luck !

 

[fabiobruno]

Cerianthus, can you explain me what makes you think it is not microsporidia protozoan infestation?
One thing is sure, 3 fish died with the same lumps, must be something infectious.

I had the gourami for 10 months now and the PH has been stable at 7.9, all other parameters have been fine since the tank cycled, the only exception was around Easter when I suspect the filter stopped working properly... more or less when all started, but the water as been good since then.
Wouldn't lower the PH to 7 from 7.9 be also dangerous?

Is a 5 days of Metro going to be armful?

 

[mel_20_20]

With all due respect, Cerianthus, if you could please re-read this thread from the beginning to refresh your memory of the history of illness in the tank I think it would be helpful. Fabio's Rainbow had a lump in and under his mouth, which, at the time, you also thought could be a xenoma due to a microsporidian infestation.

Fabio, if it is microsporidian or some other protozoan parasite then Metro can't hurt and may help, though there are many internal parasites and I'm not familiar with all of them. I know Metro doesn't help with all.

If this is lymphocystis, the Metro can't hurt and certainly in any case pristine water conditions will help.

I disagree with the notion that frequent water changes will be harmful to fish in a fish tank and will upset the ph and causes more problems. In fact, more frequent water changes will help reduce the likelihood that a huge difference exists between the tap water and the tank water.

It is true that with infrequent, but big, water changes there could be significant differences in the ph, and more importantly the TDS, between the tankwater and tapwater, but, Fabio, you have maintained a good schedule of water changes up to this point and increasing the frequency and volume, I believe will only help your fish feel better and improve their chances of recovery.

If this is lymphocystis, and it could be, then the water changes will help as much as anything can by improving the immune system of the fish, and also by removing some of the virus that the fish are shedding into the water column.

Lymphocystis is ugly, but usually is not fatal unless it is in the gills and/or possibly has involved internal organs. Even in that case the Metro can't hurt, pristine water may help.

If the Metro helps, then we may deduce that this was indeed parasitic. If they show more characteristic signs of Lymphocystis we may be able to safely say that this was most likely an unusually devastating case of Lymphocystis.

If this is Lymphocystis then you will just have to ride this out to the finale, keep the fish as healthy as you can by providing optimum conditions, and certainly I would not add any more fish to this tank. If, and I pray not, your fish all die then I would sterilize and decontaminate this tank to eradicate any remaining Lymphocystis virus.

I'm hoping for the best, Fabio. Please keep us updated on their condition.

 

[Cerianthus]

Cerianthus, can you explain me what makes you think it is not microsporidia protozoan infestation?
One thing is sure, 3 fish died with the same lumps, must be something infectious.

I had the gourami for 10 months now and the PH has been stable at 7.9, all other parameters have been fine since the tank cycled, the only exception was around Easter when I suspect the filter stopped working properly... more or less when all started, but the water as been good since then.
Wouldn't lower the PH to 7 from 7.9 be also dangerous?

Is a 5 days of Metro going to be armful?

Sometimes it may even take longer time to develop complications due to exposure to extreme conditions.

Drip accliminate for few hours if you wish to try.
Do you know how to drip accliminate?
See attached below and excuse my lousy dwg and handwriting....
YOu can diy your own as well.

When was the last time fish died due to lumps (with an assumption death were related to lumps)?

Because one disease took place month ago, it does not necessarily mean it is the same disease.
Looking at the pics, first which pop up in my head was TB, not an microsporidian.

I had created many different extreme conditions where fish were exposed to slow changes to extreme condition & let them develop diseases in order for me to perform different trials to learn what's what. I was able to have such protrusion correct itself with and without med by providing or should I say upon gradually correcting water condition to each specific fish's ideal condition per trial. I had fishes with same symptoms as yours for quite a while which will further develop into irreversible phase.

As I may have pointed out on numerous occasions, reading mateials are importnant as per foundation for diagonosis/treatment of fish, but on hand experiences will assist in more accurate diagnosis thus more ideal treatment. Then again, unfortunately fish in question is not in front of me.

I also had experienced on numerous occasion of Micro as I brought up the possibility of this on May 08, I mentioned possiblity of sush upon recognizing the sysmptom(s) from experiences, not upon googling someones sugestions.

I would not dare posting what I googled upon someone's suggestion since you can do the same. If any subject comes up which I am not familiar with, I would just follow the thread (another way to learn) and do my own research thru other routes which may be unavail to most. I have prepared my own experiments upon learning/hearing of new hypothesis/findings for me to confirm or to better understand the diseases/developments for future prevention.
Read all of my postings. I dont think I ever posted any upon googling. Mostly what I know from my experiences, little science related background knowledge and literatures.

These trials were only possible when I had grande facilities until few yrs ago. At this moment, I can only try trials on salt water fish such as the long tem effect of keeping marine fish in hypo condition.
With the bugs in me which I can never eradicate, not that I want to, I am seriously contemplating whether to return to fish industry or not.
I had massive systems where four vats (sumps) in the basement approximately equal to 3000-4000 gallons.

I dont exactly know what the implication/complication Metro might have, if any, on lesion/open wound on gourami but I dont see a need to use metro when you have other choices which may work better in this case.

Although it could be other pathogens and/or even secondary/tertiary infections, I strongly feel this may be begining stage of TB. Again it is just my opnion as per what I perceived as disease progressed in many of my trials, not just from literatures.

Anyway, hope this answers some of your questions and keeping my fingers crossed which ever route you may take!

 

[fabiobruno]

Mel, Cerianthus, thanks a lot again for your suggestions, and please don't fight for me ;-)

Actually great drawing Cerianthus!

To answer your question:
The last fish that died because of the lumps was the female precox that I had to euthanase on July the 27th before leaving on holiday (at that rate I guess it would have survived just 1 more week), I had first noticed the lump and a not perfect tail fin on June the 2nd.

Before that the male precox had died on June the 25th, after 4 days of internal organ failures signs (swollen abdomen dropsy looking, slow erratic swim at water surface), the first lump on one side was visible on June the 5th (and few more appeared a couple of days later), but before the lump it had developed the swollen mouth from April the 24th.

To start from the beginning:
I've got the 4 precox (1 male and 3 females), together with 2 boeseman's, on January the 9th, quarantined them for 2 wks and then moved to the main tank (Note: I wanted to keep the fish in the QT for longer but the filter wasn't great and I had non 0 ammonia and nitrites in several checks, this is why a rushed the transfer).

The first female precox died on Feb the 19th (it had an hole in the throat), after 1 wk of not looking great (dislocated mouth, yellowish colour a bit swollen). I supposed a trauma on the mouth (maybe it tried to eat a small snail...) with consequent infection, helped by the previous not ideal water condition).

Around Easter I went away 1 wk and when back (April the 10th) I found the filter struggling, I thought it was because a couple of centimeter of water had evaporated and the filter was sitting to high, so I added the missing water and forgot about it (ammonia and nitrites reading were 0 after a couple of days anyway).

On April the 17th the second female precox had darkish area in the body (few days after the male developed that lump in the mouth).

On May the 1st I convinced myself that the filter was faulty and changed it (I transfered all media from the old one to the new one).

On May the 5th the female had cotton looking white stuff on the tail and the day after was dead in the quarantine tank.

Then the male and finally the female, but here we have the lumps.

Now I have Tommy with clear big lumps, the female boeseman's had a lump but it seems on the healing now and a small round whitish mark (or shallow lump) on the cherry barb. Today I thought I had seen a small lump also on a very tiny silver tipped tetra... but now I'm obsessed with lumps and see those anywhere...

Anyway I had already started Metronidazole yesterday and I'm going to complete the 5 days cure, because if I don't and it is protozoan infestation 2 days of antibiotics will make things worse.
Tommy seems to be quite stable and happy so far, I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again for your suggestions!!!! You are great!!

BTW have you noticed that nobody else had anything to say? It is because it is a very unusual disease or just because nobody want's to argue with you two?

))

 

[Cerianthus]

Like I said, hope all goes well regardless of treatment method!

I dont consider it as an argument. Debate is very crucial aspect of progress (Seminars). I would like an argument from soemone who actually experienced diseases we are discussing here so I may learn something i may have missed , not just from prints as anyone can search and read.
Reading materials alone may confused the heck out of one in despair as I have learned and experienced.
Actually and unfortunately fish pathology is more in undiscovered territory when compared to human pathology/medicine.

Although not too many replies, I am sure many are reading and researching/studying the issues discussed here which is secondary goal next to speedy and full recovery of your fish.

Diagnosis thru pics are very difficult task indeed.

btw, Any stringy worm-like strand(s) coming out of protrusion?