Hanging outsdie filters as interior filters

[oo7genie]

The problem I have with internal filters is that you have to get your hand wet...

I'm sorry, but if that's an issue for you, you're in the wrong hobby.

The problem I have with canister filters is that it is a closed, pressurized system. If you don't put it back right or if it develops a leak, it can turn into a fountain. Being a closed system, if there is an extended power outage, a dirty filter media can turn anaerobic and potentially discharge toxic ammonia and sulfide when the power returns.

So, your actual problem with canisters, is a complete lack of faith in your own ability to correctly operate one? You could always learn from your mistake, rather than blame all canister filters for it. If I flood my house because I accidentally bang the inside of a glass tank with a rock while moving things around, I wouldn't blame glass fish tanks, I'd blame myself for making a mistake. Then in the future, I would be more careful with rocks. As far as your toxic worries are concerned, regardless of what kind of powered filter you use, if the power is out for long enough, your tank will lose it's cycle, and will poison itself with ammonia. This would take place in far less time than the situation you described. Again, regardless of what kind of filter you use.

I like to stick with HOBs which gave me decades of trouble free services.

Trouble free, used AS DIRECTED, on the OUTSIDE of your tanks...

I also agree that all HOBs need frequent filter media changes, but it is so easy to change filter that I can tolerate frequent chore.

I thought you were concerned about your long trips? An Emperor 330/Penguin 350 will be much more clogged than a canister filter would be after 30 days.

Besides, more frequent filter changes means more frequent removal of nitrate source from the system and will only benefit the fish. I bought batting fabric from JoAnne Fabric by yards to make cheap filter media.

Huh??? Water changes are what remove nitrate from the tank. The source of that nitrate, is the waste that your fish produce. And in any filter, you change out the mechanical media, not the bio-media. You're removing dirt and grime, not nitrate or a nitrate source. The charcoal in the filter cartiges does not remove nitrate, nor the nitrate source. It removes medications, smells, etc. If you're using quilt batting, you don't even have charcoal in the filter anyway. The point is, the nitrate isn't effected unless you change the bio-media, which, if done improperly, can stall or kill the cycle, thus lowering or eliminating the filters ability to process ammonia and nitrite, INCREASING the potential for toxic water.

My experiment to submerge an old Penquin filter in an empty tank is on its second day and it continues to run with no electrical short. The motor apparently is sealed and made to function underwater despite manufacturer warning against doing it. The only unknown is whether it will last for long term use.

What kind of logic is that??? If it was made to function underwater, it would be considered a positive thing, and would thus be marketed that way, and THERE WOULDN'T BE WARNINGS AGAINST IT from the manufacturer. Of course it's water resistant to a point, every type of filter is! Simply because even if it's hanging on the back of a tank, it's on a fish tank! It's going to get wet! But it's not designed for long term submerged use. The only unknown? You're already completely ignoring the known!

Look, you obviously made your decision long before you ever posted your so called "question". If you want to take the risk of electrical shock, killing your fish, starting your home on fire, etc. simply because you can't properly operate a canister filter, and would rather ignore the safety warnings on a couple of HOBs instead, that's your own business. But don't ask for our thoughts, advice, or opinions, if you're just going to argue with anything people say that doesn't support what you want (and already intended) to do anyway.

I've got a crazy idea. Now stay with me, this is a bit radical... why not move the tank out from the wall an inch or two, and use your so deeply loved HOBs the way they're supposed to be used?

 

[Tiger15]

I understand that my idea sounds crazy, and don't make much sense attempting to use an equipment in condition it is not designed for and potentially can be hazardous. It won't catch fire though because it is submerged, but the fish or me can risk getting electrical shot. I haven't made decision to deploy it yet, just experiementing with the crazy idea and asking if anyone has tried it. Obviously, no one has tried it yet. It's a crazy idea, but someone has to be the first to test it out.

So far, the HOB is holding. The only unknown is whether it can hold for long term submerged use. The HOB motor seems to be made the same way as powerhead motor. If there is concern for long term submergence, the concern should apply to both applications.

Having kept fish for over 40 years and practicing as an enviornmental engineer, I understand filtration and mechanical efficiency and effectiveness full well and no need to be lectured on the pros and cons of different filtration systems. Many technologies employed in aquarium filtrations are no different from but adapted from waste water treamtment technolgies I am more than familiar with. As a member in this board since 1999 but haven't posted much lately, I probably have more time in the hobby than most posters who bashed my presumed ignorance and crazy idea.

 

[allaboutfish]

why'd you ask a question if you knew your answer?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using MonsterAquariaNetwork App

 

[Rbishop]

I understand that my idea sounds crazy, and don't make much sense attempting to use an equipment in condition it is not designed for and potentially can be hazardous. It won't catch fire though because it is submerged, but the fish or me can risk getting electrical shot. I haven't made decision to deploy it yet, just experiementing with the crazy idea and asking if anyone has tried it. Obviously, no one has tried it yet. It's a crazy idea, but someone has to be the first to test it out.

So far, the HOB is holding. The only unknown is whether it can hold for long term submerged use. The HOB motor seems to be made the same way as powerhead motor. If there is concern for long term submergence, the concern should apply to both applications.

Having kept fish for over 40 years and practicing as an enviornmental engineer, I understand filtration and mechanical efficiency and effectiveness full well and no need to be lectured on the pros and cons of different filtration systems. Many technologies employed in aquarium filtrations are no different from but adapted from waste water treamtment technolgies I am more than familiar with. As a member in this board since 1999 but haven't posted much lately, I probably have more time in the hobby than most posters who bashed my presumed ignorance and crazy idea.

There wasn't any bashing....

 

[Rbishop]

I understand that my idea sounds crazy, and don't make much sense attempting to use an equipment in condition it is not designed for and potentially can be hazardous. It won't catch fire though because it is submerged, but the fish or me can risk getting electrical shot. I haven't made decision to deploy it yet, just experiementing with the crazy idea and asking if anyone has tried it. Obviously, no one has tried it yet. It's a crazy idea, but someone has to be the first to test it out.

So far, the HOB is holding. The only unknown is whether it can hold for long term submerged use. The HOB motor seems to be made the same way as powerhead motor. If there is concern for long term submergence, the concern should apply to both applications.

Having kept fish for over 40 years and practicing as an enviornmental engineer, I understand filtration and mechanical efficiency and effectiveness full well and no need to be lectured on the pros and cons of different filtration systems. Many technologies employed in aquarium filtrations are no different from but adapted from waste water treamtment technolgies I am more than familiar with. As a member in this board since 1999 but haven't posted much lately, I probably have more time in the hobby than most posters who bashed my presumed ignorance and crazy idea.

The concern would not apply since the power head manual will not say "Do Not Submerge"...just saying...

 

[platytudes]

You started this thread with a question - anyone used a HOB filter inside of a tank?

It's pretty obvious that no, no one has. I think everyone clearly sees this is a bad idea. It's risky, probably downright dangerous, and the filter is not going to operate effectively or last as long as it should. Polyester batting is not proper media to use long term as standalone media. It's disposable media that basically just performs one function - mechanical filtration. There is much better media out there, and it's rinseable and reusable so lasts basically forever and is an excellent investment, even if it is pricey at first.

If you're going to use PolyFill, you might as well use a box filter powered by an air pump...but if internal filters cause you to get your hands wet and canisters are too complicated, then probably there's something wrong with the air pump too...it's noisy, or something. And without a $2 check valve, could cause flooding.

So anyway, feel free to report on the long term results...but I'd say this thread is about good as closed, because you really didn't want any alternatives. You just wanted to see if anyone had tried your [bad] idea before, and the answer is simply...no...because people want to get the most out of their filters and don't want to risk breaking them, or in the worst case scenario, harming themselves or their fish. However you feel free to do whatever you want, just don't expect anyone to cheer you on, since it goes against all logic and common sense!

Think about it...if these filters really could be used this way effectively, why would they not market them as such? It would be one more feature to promote.

Maybe you want to try an air pump underwater next? Just be sure and wear rubber shoes!

 

[oo7genie]

It's a crazy idea, but someone has to be the first to test it out.

You're absolutely right. And they did, long before you ever purchased the filter. It was tested by the manufacturer. I'll bet you can guess what their conclusion was...

"DO NOT SUBMERGE"

You mention your experience as an environmental engineer, as if it's supposed to validate the idea that we all think is potentially dangerous. So let me ask you, during your time as an environmental engineer, did you spend a lot of time intentionally ignoring safety precautions? Or, as in this case, purposely doing things that were specifically prohibited by said safety regulations? I'm just curious. I'd hate to think that those that treat our waste water are in the habit of intentionally bypassing safety regulations just to see if the warnings from the wastewater equipment manufacturers are true...

 

[Tiger15]

I'd hate to think that those that treat our waste water are in the habit of intentionally bypassing safety regulations just to see if the warnings from the wastewater equipment manufacturers are true...

Don't mix occupasional safety rule with hobbyist testing an innovative but crazy idea. If accident happens, it doesn't harm anybody else but myself and the fish.

I thought you were concerned about your long trips? An Emperor 330/Penguin 350 will be much more clogged than a canister filter would be after 30 days.

True, HOB will get clogged up faster than canister. But a clogged HOB will bypass flow at the same rate and aerate the water, just doesn't do any mechanical filtration. A clogged canister or undergravel filter will slow down or stop flowing and in a power outage can turn anerobic because they are closed systems, not so with HOBs because they are open systems and contain tiny volume of filter media.

Huh??? Water changes are what remove nitrate from the tank. The source of that nitrate, is the waste that your fish produce. And in any filter, you change out the mechanical media, not the bio-media. You're removing dirt and grime, not nitrate or a nitrate source. The charcoal in the filter cartiges does not remove nitrate, nor the nitrate source. It removes medications, smells, etc.

What you said is true that water change is the only effective way to reduce nitrate, neither carbon nor mechanical filter will do it. So I don't waste money on carbon but do frequent watger changes. You are wrong about the dirt and grime though because there is always unfinished food trapped in it because fish are messy eater. Moreover, the large colony of micros live and die in the dirt and grim are a protein and nitrate source. The reason a clogged up undergravel or canister filter in a power outage can turn anerobic is due to massive died of of aerobic micros.

I've got a crazy idea. Now stay with me, this is a bit radical... why not move the tank out from the wall an inch or two, and use your so deeply loved HOBs the way they're supposed to be used?

You need 4 to 5 inch from the wall, not an inch or two to fit the HOBs. Marineland Eclipse Aquarium made hang on top filter where the motor gets wet from moisture and splash. Hang on top filters are very common in Asian countries where space is a premium.

 

[Nepherael]

Another idea is to raise the HOB up, elongate the intake, and sit it on top somehow. I don't know that will work or give you adequate flow, just an idea.

 

[wesleydnunder]

The HOB filters are UL listed to be used in their proper manner, per mfgs recommendations. By putting the HOB inside you effectively toss its UL listing in the bin. If it starts a fire or injures someone, you're liable since you took it on yourself to use it in a manner that is strictly forbidden in the mfgs instructions.

This has gotta be one of the most hairbrained ideas I've ever heard.

Maybe you should get a pet rock or a bowl of pet dirt.

Mark