Hybrid/Not a Hybrid (Cichlids)

[ChilDawg]

I can tell, Z Man, that you're enjoying this.

The fact remains that there are multiple Discus and Oscar species, and this was not known when breeding started with both species. Thus, there are some hybrids.

There are also Scalare X Altum Angels out there, as people purposely bred the two to reduce fin rot in the Scalares.

The RDs were considered to be monotypic (at least on the subgeneric level, when everything was a Cichlasomine), so they, too, have been hybridized to an extent.

There are no scientific names for hybrids, though some Discus/Angel/O/RD hybrids are recognized as the former monotypic species, b/c people did not know of hybridization back then, and most do not know about the Altum/Scalare breeding and the attempt to mitigate fin rot.

The Blood Parrot and Flowerhorn, among the other blatantly hybrid species, cannot and should not be given a scientific name. Just look up Blood Parrot to find them, and go to www.ddott.com for info on the Flower Horn, but be prepared for them to misuse the word "species" to describe their creation.

 

[Rare Cichlids]

Oh, sorry. You just worded it a bit awkwardly, Z man.

You are 100% correct in stating that there are line bred strains of Pterophyllum scalare, Symphysodon aequifasciatus, and Xiphophorus helleri that are not hybrids in the least, but a pure species. On the other hand, all of the listed species have several close relatives that are very similar and that have been crossed intentionally and unintentionally to create some of the variaties we have today. There is no denying that many of our Discus variaties are intentional hybrids between 2 or more species. On the other hand, Goldfish and Koi are (as far as I know) pure species that have been line bred for centuries.


Correct, Childawg. You would hard pressed to find a pure Amphilophus labiatus or Amphilophus citrinellus without visiting a specialty shop or mail ordering Wild Caught or F1 fish from a trusted source. The common Red Devil is most definantly a hybrid.

 

[ChilDawg]

I thought that I'd seen you debate that before!

Folks, this thread is more for educational purposes than anything else, and I'm glad that we're keeping it on an educational level. I'm impressed! If you see any hybrids or want to know if a certain fish is a hybrid, this is the place to come, b/c a lot of people here have some really good contacts on this issue.

I never said that all of any of these fish were hybrids, but that there are some readily available, and I did not mean for it to be taken in any other way. RC knows what he's talking about when he says that it is impossible to find RDs that are not crosses within our normal means, so I'll accept that as true. I will not accept other such generalizations as true until I have a well-respected source backing me up...just so you know!

 

[JimG]

Originally posted by ChilDawg
The fact remains that there are multiple Discus and Oscar species, and this was not known when breeding started with both species. Thus, there are some hybrids.

There are no scientific names for hybrids, though some Discus/Angel/O/RD hybrids are recognized as the former monotypic species, b/c people did not know of hybridization back then, and most do not know about the Altum/Scalare breeding and the attempt to mitigate fin rot.

The Blood Parrot and Flowerhorn, among the other blatantly hybrid species, cannot and should not be given a scientific name.

In chordate fauna no hybrid is a new species (in flora this can sometimes be the case though). I know in the common venacular when one group of discus with some preferred trait is bred to some other group of discus with another preferred trait the offspring are called 'hybrid'. But really if that offspring is itself capable of inline breeding with itself then the original two groups really should not have been labeled as separate species but were in effect subspecies. The label 'species' is quite a controversial one within biology and it seems the term 'hybrid' has a looser meaning in animal husbandry than it does in biology.

I must point out Chili that new discus and oscar species could come about simply by inline breeding though. This is how speciation occurs in nature. This is also why a true hybrid like the blood parrot can never be given a species name as they cannot be inline bred. I must admit I am startled that Flowerhorn males are fertile (they are right?). This can only mean the parent species are quite close together genetically and to their common ancestor and are only separate species by human convention.

Cheers

 

[ChilDawg]

Not necessarily. Some of the BPs are fertile, though their parentage stretches across genera.

FH males are fertile, for the most part, but that does not make for speciation (though I suspect that we might hear of the other species involved in making the FHs soon...and we will hopefully learn that they are just special Trimacs!)

I know that new species can come about through inline breeding...the goldie used to be a Crucian Carp, I believe, but it is now distinctly separate. Unfortunately, the Oscars and Discus are now being seen as separate species in the wild...and these types were made available to us in the past, but we didn't look carefully enough at the idea of multitypical genera.

We may very well see new species through inline breeding in the near future, but, in order to do that, we would have to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, and figure out the exact genetic makeup of lines of these species and/or hybrids in order to work from a pure strain and inline breeding our way to speciation.

 

[caz]

so your saying there is more than one species of oscar?

 

[ChilDawg]

I'm going to defer to Herbert Axelrod, and say yes. Jeff Rapps thinks so as well, because he sells Astronotus crassipinnis from time to time and A. ocellatus almost all the time.

 

[caz]

wow! thanx for the info. i think this might help me to explain this little oscar that my girlfriend has. it thought it was a gold oscar, but its not solid gold like the ones i have seen. its like a normal tiger oscar, except where there should be red, there is a beige color. no red whatso ever on this fish.

 

[caz]

heres a bad picture, but youll get the idea

 

[ChilDawg]

Just know, please, that the Tiger Oscar is not necessarily a species...they thought that Astronotus was monotypic at the time, so, more accurately, you would be looking at a crossbreed involving the Tiger Oscar and another similar one...but there may be some hybridization going on with her fish, too!