Hybrid/Not a Hybrid (Cichlids)

[Rare Cichlids]

Rare Cichlid - I am a fan of the A Labiatus and can not for the life of me separate it from some of the others.

15 species? Is there any documentation that they are really distinct species? I would love to see it as I have particular interest in the fish.

There are several people working to distingiush the species in Nicaragua. So far the fish in the following list have been separated and will reach species status if they haven't already:

Amarillo
"Apoyo Amarillo"
Barlowi
"Big Lips"
Canchoro
Citrinellus
Hogaboomorus
Labiatus
Sagittae
"Short"
Zaliosum

Thats just off the top of my head and most of those are from only 3 lakes. The estimates are that in total there will be 15-30 species, most endemic to a single small lake. The differences between most of these is readily apparent. Usually much more than Citrinellus and Labiatus.


This isn't intended to be rude or instigating but, how do you tell the difference for certain? I would love to know as I can't.

I also wonder if the variability isn't what Harry T is refering to as genetic instability in hybridizing. Or perhaps just species variability.

The differences between most of the species I listed are obvious in color, pattern, and body shape. As far as I know, hybridizing between and of the "Red Devil" species has never been reported. Even fish like the "Big Lips" which is endemic to little Lago Xiloa, and scarce, has never been documented mating with another species or variante.

I would again like to point to the goldfish exhibit where you have the lionhead, veiltail, celestial eye, etc...

Also at what point are you able to tell the difference (size/age).

I can separate Midas and Red Devil fry at 2".

Again , I am asking this as I am really interested in getting some bright red labiatus with thick lips and breed them and as I cannot tell the difference (apperently a lot of experts can't either if they don't know the parentage) and it is annoying to grow out a fish for a long time only to have it turn out to be a citronellus or a hybrid. I also don't want to grow something out as a labiatus, breed it and after I give a bunch away , find out they aren't true.

Lip size varies from population to population of both species, and even in the same lake. Color varies also, but is not fixed on location, I think. There are bright yellow, simple lipped wild labiatus, and they genetically the same as the large lipped Red fish.

The large lipped Red form is scarce in the wild, and in captivity, more rare than the Striped. Where are you located, I might be able to recommend a source depending on where you are (although it seems like you've told me before). Hopefully I'll be getting some this summer. If your in the US, I may be able to get extra, and send them your way.



JimG, anything is possible. But the real experts, such as Azas, Kullander, and Konings seem to think quite differently.

 

[inxs]

Rare Cichlids : you got mail.
Also thanks for the info.

 

[Marcus]

I was under the impression that the big lips on A. labiatus were due to environmental conditions and that once these fish are removed from their natural environment, the lips change into a more normal form.

From what I recall, the big lips act as a 'gasket' that is placed over a hole in the mud and then the fish sucks out fish/crustaceans in these holes. Once this feeding behaviour is suspended in captavity the lips shrink due to lack of use.

 

[ChilDawg]

Marcus, I've heard that, too, about the lip regression, but never the reasoning behind it, so I thank you for that.

 

[Rare Cichlids]

Although the lips are bound to shrink somewhat, if you are able to get a wild Labiatus that has enlarged lips, they will stay to a good extant as long as the bottom of their aquarium is layered with large pebbles. I have even thought of trying to recreate the natural feeding conditions in hopes of enlarging the lips of some captive Labiatus.

Originally posted by Marcus
I was under the impression that the big lips on A. labiatus were due to environmental conditions and that once these fish are removed from their natural environment, the lips change into a more normal form.

From what I recall, the big lips act as a 'gasket' that is placed over a hole in the mud and then the fish sucks out fish/crustaceans in these holes. Once this feeding behaviour is suspended in captavity the lips shrink due to lack of use.

 

[ChilDawg]

Maybe the pond will help with that, Rex!

It sounds like a good idea, and I'd love to see a photo album with the Before and After pictures!

 

[Rare Cichlids]

Childawg, thats what I'm hoping for. I think that the lips should enlarge quite a bit, and that the red coloration will be brought out a little more by being kept in a pond. And I will take pictures of before and after.

 

[ChilDawg]

Thanks!

 

[JimG]

Originally posted by Rare Cichlids
JimG, anything is possible. But the real experts, such as Azas, Kullander, and Konings seem to think quite differently.

Sorry differently about what? I am not quite sure what you are referring to. I am not familiar with any of these names though anthropology is more my gig than ichthyology so if they are ichthyologists that is probably why. Among taxonomists though regardless of what Class, Order, etc of beastie they are focusing on there are many who just love to dole out the species nomenclature.

A working definition of a species is a group of fauna or flora which will not mate with other groups of its genus. Generally species specific traits arrive because of some sort of breeding isolation between groups. If people stick fish together which are isolated from breeding in the wild but then the fish breed in captivity are they separate species? What makes them so if so?

There is no such thing as a pure species, species is a fluid human construct.

 

[Rare Cichlids]

Originally posted by JimG


Sorry differently about what? I am not quite sure what you are referring to. I am not familiar with any of these names though anthropology is more my gig than ichthyology so if they are ichthyologists that is probably why. Among taxonomists though regardless of what Class, Order, etc of beastie they are focusing on there are many who just love to dole out the species nomenclature.

A working definition of a species is a group of fauna or flora which will not mate with other groups of its genus. Generally species specific traits arrive because of some sort of breeding isolation between groups. If people stick fish together which are isolated from breeding in the wild but then the fish breed in captivity are they separate species? What makes them so if so?

There is no such thing as a pure species, species is a fluid human construct.

JimG, you said "Very possibly they are in effect sub-species though I know that seems mind boggling".

If you were to do some research on American cichlids you will run across articles and websites by those people, and others who are now working to divide and join previously known species. Not to mention trying to asign newly discovered species. Do some research on the subject and you will see what they are talking about.