is there something wrong with my blackmoor?

[Kashta]

Hi Newbie... For the fish you have, Flaringshutter has already posted the minimum volume you need to keep these fish in good health. I've highlighted these numbers again for you in the text below.

Beyond that, you should know that the tank you have is much, much too small for the number of fish you are keeping in it. Shubunkins require at least 80 litres each, and fantails need about 60 litres each. Your tank is large enough for only one goldfish, maximum. They may be small now, but fantail goldfish can reach lengths of 25 cm, and shubunkins can exceed 40 cm! If goldfish are kept in a tank that is too small, they will become stunted, which can cause serious illness and premature death. So it is important for you to upgrade to a larger tank very soon. If you would like to keep all of your current fish, you will need at least a 375 litre aquarium.

If it's not possible to upgrade your tank to a large enough size, you should choose between the fish you have now and decide which ones you would like to keep... then rehome the others. Otherwise, all the fish you have will become stunted with weakened immune systems, will develop internal organ/digestional problems, and will most likely begin to die off, one by one.

You should also raise the temperature (slowly) to 26 degrees C while continuing treatment, as Flaringshutter also recommended in her post. The higher temperature accelerates the parasite's lifecycle, so you can complete this full cycle of treatment (adults > eggs > larva > free swimmers > adults > eggs > etc...) within a 10-day period.

This treatment has no effect at all on the parasite while it is in its adult form or in the egg/larval stage. The adult organisms will die on their own (naturally) and the eggs released will hatch and grow to a free-swimming stage. It's during this stage that the free-swimmers will be killed... thus, preventing them from reaching adulthood and releasing new eggs.

Without the higher temperature, this parasite lifecycles takes several weeks and the free-swimming form of parasite may not be wiped out completely... making it extremely difficult for your treatment to eradicate all of the parasites.

 

[mel_20_20]

By your measurement it seems your tank is around 30 gallons. As Flaringshutter mentioned some of your fish need 15 gallons each and some need around 20 each, so no, your tank is really to small.

They may be little now, but they grow very fast and need larger tank, asap.

Also, the heat increase mentioned by Flarringshutter and Kashta is really a good move to help speed up the treatment. If you increase the heat, the Protozoans that cause the ich will more quickly reach the free swimming stage which is where the medication will start to work, i.e., the cysts or spots will actually seem to get worse,there will be a lot more that show up, but that is just the cysts forming on the protozoans that are already there.

They form cysts or specks that are on the fishes bodies, then as the life cycle progresses they drop off, which is the free swimming stage, and this is when the treatment kills them. You need to follow the instructions completely on the treatment. The heat just helps to speed it up. It won't hurt the fish, but a bubbler or airstone will help with oxygenation.

:welcome:Welcome to AC, btw. You've come to the right place for help. Hope you enjoy the forum, I know you will.

Pleae do listen carefully and try to the advice of Flaringshutter and Kashta. They are real pros, and they can really help you get through this.

Hang in there and keep up the good work. :thm:

 

[Flaringshutter]

Hey again Newbie,

Although 127 litres is much better than 80, it is still not large enough for your goldfish. You will need at least a 375 litre tank for your current fish, even if you do not plan on adding any more.

As far as the white spot, as Melody mentioned, it is very important to heat the tank while you are adding the medication. You can pick up a good aquarium heater for not too much at most pet stores. Just be sure to buy one that is appropriate for your size tank.
If you try to treat the tank with medication without heating the water, you may have to treat for weeks before all the parasites are gone. Your fish may die before that ever happens. So you can understand why a heater is a good investment.

Best of luck to you! As Kashta and Melody mentioned, we're very happy to have you here at AC! Hopefully your fish will recover. Keep us updated on them.

 

[newbiefishlover]

i found out i was wrongly advised by a friend about the white spot and it appeared that my fish didnt have it - but it does have a rather fleshy wound where the 'white spot' i saw was -
i didnt realise that white spot was loads of little dots all at once- i thought i had caught it before it got bad-
the woman on the phone of the pet shop i got the blackmoors from told me that it may of been a callious or something like that ?! but it looks really fleshy- i can see red where there are no scales left where it was ?!

i got my water tested and the guy in the shop told me there were traces of ammonia and nitrate so my filters working ok - and that it wasnt dangerous levels in the water -
what can help my fish get better apart from keeping the tank clean?!
also the guy that tested the water for me in the shop i bought the moorsw and shubunkins from said i would only need about a 100 litre tank?! he showed me a tank that was quite bit larger than mine!?
im getting really confused with all the volumes to be honest - for all i know my tank could be 3mililitres and id still think it was 3 litres (im not that bad)
how should i measure it to find out its exact volume to avoid any more confusion - and how come the pet shop guy has said such a drastic amount less than some one on here?
thanks for reading all of that !

 

[Kashta]

Hi Newbie. I'm real sorry you keep getting contradictory advice. I know how confusing that is and how frustrating this can be for a beginner.

I went through the exact same thing 15+ years ago when I started keeping goldfish for the first time. That was a totally devasting experience for me to go through; it broke my heart to watch every fish I'd bought to ultimately get sick and die within the first 6 months.

I researched everything as fully as I could at that time. I compared all the advice I could get from anyone who seemed credible to me. I bought all the chemicals recommended by the retailer. And I bought all the medications they sold to treat my fish when they inevitably got sick and were dying a few short months later. But the only reason they got that way in the first place was because my 80 gallon tank was too small for the number of goldfish I had.

I didn't know this back then, but I do now. If I had started out with the right size tank to begin with, that would have prevented the subsequent chain of events my fish went through one after another from one disease/parasite to the next... and all the fish I'd grown to love so much would have survived. This is the reason I spend so much time trying to help other people now -- so even more beginning goldfish keepers won't have to go through the same thing as me -- and so their fish won't suffer and die such miserable deaths like mine did.

This is what it boils down to:

15 gallons (15 US gallons = 56.78 liters) per fish for fancies (like yours) and 20 gallons per fish (20 US gallons = 75.71 liters) for pond varieties (like most of mine are now)... as a minimum.
​

Use these numbers to work from + double the "usual" filtration for the size tank you get + condition the water with a dechlorinator + feed them high quality food and a varied diet + perform weekly partial water changes + clean the gravel regularly.

It doesn't need to be more complicated than that. By following those guidelines, you will have healthy fish that grow up fully developed and strong and who will live out their full 10-20 year lifespan... instead of getting sick/lethargic and dying off within just a few short years (possibly even months).

To calculate fish tank water volume for yourself, this is the link I use.

http://reef.diesyst.com/volcalc/volcalc.html

These are the tank dimensions you gave us before.

2 foot length,1.5 fott depth and 1.5 width

If those measurements are correct... then go to the link and follow these steps.

1. Set dimensions to "inches."

2. Set main aquarium shape to "rectangular."

3. Enter length = 24 inches, side = 18 inches, and water depth = 18 inches.

4. Over on the right side, set volume results to "liters."

5. Click the "calculate" button.
​

The result you will get is 127.4 liters (33.6 gallons).

Save that link for future reference and you'll be able to calculate the volume for any tank, no matter what size or shape it is. You can see from the options there, too, that it lets you make adjustments for other details as well.

i got my water tested and the guy in the shop told me there were traces of ammonia and nitrate so my filters working ok - and that it wasnt dangerous levels in the water

Buy your own liquid test kit as soon as you can so you can measure the water quality yourself and have accurate results. Don't rely on anyone else to judge for you what is "working ok," what is "just fine", or what is "not dangerous." That test kit is going to cost you approx. $25-30... and it's the BEST investment you can make. Ammonia and Nitrite must be ZERO and Nitrate must be less than 40 ppm.

what can help my fish get better apart from keeping the tank clean?!

Goldfish are very hardy and do an amazing job of recovering all by themselves. Give them a tank that's not too small and overcrowded and a proper diet... and even an open wound like you've described will heal all by itself.

also the guy that tested the water for me in the shop i bought the moorsw and shubunkins from said i would only need about a 100 litre tank?! he showed me a tank that was quite bit larger than mine!?

im getting really confused with all the volumes to be honest - for all i know my tank could be 3mililitres and id still think it was 3 litres (im not that bad)

how should i measure it to find out its exact volume to avoid any more confusion - and how come the pet shop guy has said such a drastic amount less than some one on here?

People who sell fish, equipment, and supplies are not the ones you should listen to. Don't even bother asking them for advice anymore. That's the mistake I made 15 years ago with disastrous results. And that's what other members here have been through, as well. Learn from the mistakes we have already made to spare yourself the grief and unnecessary expense we've all been through ourselves.

Instead... listen to people who actually keep these fish in healthy conditions who have real experience doing this successfully and who aren't in the business of selling you anything.

We really want nothing but the very best for you and for your fish. Good luck with all of this. Please keep us informed and ask us any other questions you might possibly have.

 

[Flaringshutter]

:iagree:

Kashta gave you some excellent advice there. Absolutely spot on in every way!

Best of luck to you!

 

[newbiefishlover]

i said last night about a wound on the black moor- i noticed before i went to bed that the other moor seemed to be 'sucking' on the wound?
i seperated the injured one in to a tank on its own, and now theres a white 'covering' again over where the wound was?
its not tottally covered but you cant see the flesh as much?
would it of been an 'attack' from the other moor that has caused it to start with or was it just 'sucking' off any bad from the wound? iv been told to put salt in the water- but i dont know how much and is just house hold salt ok to use?!

thanks for your replies , i really need to get something to measure the tank with correctly and exactly. i tried using a peice of string against an a4 peice of paper and that then worked out to be 46.52 litres (but that wasnt the exact -there is still some extra room on that as the 'odd' bits on the end- but i guess this 'extra' space would be taken up by the filter had gravel etc?)

 

[Kashta]

i said last night about a wound on the black moor- i noticed before i went to bed that the other moor seemed to be 'sucking' on the wound?

When one fish is wounded or becomes ill, it's very common for its fellow tankmates to start picking at the sick fish. You'll even see them begin to tear or nibble on the fins, the eyes, or any area where the flesh is exposed. This is not aggression or hostility; it's just the way nature works, I suppose, to hasten the death of those who are already old/sick/dying and to provide fresh food for the surviving population.

Definitely make sure these two stay separated until the weaker/sick fish recovers completely. During times of high stress, injury, or illness.. the fish becomes too lethargic to defend itself normally. Once your moor is healthy again, this behavior will stop and it will be safe for them to stay together.

i seperated the injured one in to a tank on its own, and now theres a white 'covering' again over where the wound was?
its not tottally covered but you cant see the flesh as much?

I believe this is a good sign, Newbie. That white covering would be the fish's natural slime coat produced by the fish to protect the open wound from infection. The wounded tissue regrows from the inside as it heals, while a very thick coating of slime is produced to cover the exposed area on the outside. This is a normal part of the healing process.

would it of been an 'attack' from the other moor that has caused it to start with or was it just 'sucking' off any bad from the wound?

An attack from the other fish was probably not the cause. Goldfish are very peaceful and non-aggressive with each other, by nature. Most times, this only happens after the weaker fish is already sick or has been injured.

iv been told to put salt in the water- but i dont know how much and is just house hold salt ok to use?!

With the information you've been able to give us... plus no photos to see the affected site where the wound is, it's hard to tell exactly whether this is an infection, injury, or some other problem. I would not use salt at all for this because it sounds like it's already healing now.

thanks for your replies , i really need to get something to measure the tank with correctly and exactly. i tried using a peice of string against an a4 peice of paper and that then worked out to be 46.52 litres (but that wasnt the exact -there is still some extra room on that as the 'odd' bits on the end- but i guess this 'extra' space would be taken up by the filter had gravel etc?)

That's an excellent question to ask. Take an accurate measurement of the tank's length, width, and depth and use that to calculate the total volume of water. There is, of course, a certain amount of actual water displaced by the thickness of the glass panels themselves, the substrate, plants, driftwood, decor items, and anything else we put inside the tank.. even an internal filter. All of this is already taken into account with the general "15-20 gallons of water per fish" guideline we use and recommend. The net difference between the calculated tank volume capacity and the actual water volume contained inside doesn't need to be factored in to this.

 

[newbiefishlover]

i tried to get a picture of the wounded fish but as soon as i even look at the wound, it swims away - so theres no chance of that ,
i asked on another site and they said it may be fin rot?and when reading the label inside the treatment it said about a cottony wool type covering on the fish , which i guess is what it looks like ....would it be dangerous to treat the fish for this if it wasnt that?
and also it doesnt say how to use it i.e how many days or if to cycle the water or not ?
its the interpet anti fungus and fin rot brand.
also as i was worried i bought some salt to put in the tanks, its the supa tonic salts for fresh water aquarium,
and i put a tespoon of that in the tank with the injured fish to help healing- will it affect the fishs natural healing process?

 

[Kashta]

Hi Nat.. any change in the appearance of the wound site over the last couple of days? I was hoping you'd manage to get a photo to show us so we could help you determine what the problem really is.

i tried to get a picture of the wounded fish but as soon as i even look at the wound, it swims away - so theres no chance of that ,

That's very typical. Goldfish are always so active. Believe it or not, the best way to get a picture of the fish is to try photographing your plants or decor items instead. LOL. That's usually when goldfish are sure to get in the way. Seriously though, sometimes the only way you can photograph a wound site is to gently net the fish or cradle it in one hand while using your other hand to snap the shot. It may also help to fill a large bowl or basin with some tank water and put the fish there so you can take the photo. Please keep trying... it really would help us to see what this looks like so we can suggest a better diagnosis and appropriate treatment.

i asked on another site and they said it may be fin rot?and when reading the label inside the treatment it said about a cottony wool type covering on the fish , which i guess is what it looks like ....would it be dangerous to treat the fish for this if it wasnt that?
and also it doesnt say how to use it i.e how many days or if to cycle the water or not ?
its the interpet anti fungus and fin rot brand.?
also as i was worried i bought some salt to put in the tanks, its the supa tonic salts for fresh water aquarium,
and i put a tespoon of that in the tank with the injured fish to help healing- will it affect the fishs natural healing process?

Would it be dangerous? In many cases, YES! We really can't succumb to the temptation to throw different meds or the wrong meds at our fish as an easy cure approach whenever we notice something is wrong. Believe me, I've been through that with goldfish I had before and the fish I did this with did not survive. Even doing massive water changes and running charcoal in between isn't always good enough to prevent use of the wrong meds from causing further harm.

Often, the most misleading information we get comes from reading labels on the products sold to us as treatment for common ailments. Many of those products are not effective at all and the guidance written on the package is nothing more than marketing nonsense intended to convince us to buy the product. Sometimes these can be effective, but the claims made by the manufacturers have to be taken in context. Very often, they depend upon early diagnosis and immediate treatment... otherwise they aren't going to work.

From WetWebMedia: "Since many of the problems that antibacterials and antibiotics are used to treat are typically caused by lack of quarantining, careless use of live food, or poor water quality management, this underlines the fact that prevention is definitely better than cure."

A lot of the meds we need to use (as more of a last resort only when absolutely necessary) are also very harsh on our fish. Sometimes using meds on a sick fish is what actually puts them over the edge instead of helping them to get better. Always use caution and do your best to try other treatment methods first.

Another problem we're faced with in your case is that you don't actually know yet what the white spots are, where they came from, or what caused this. Most medications are NOT safe used in combination with other meds. So trying one product, then having to switch to another could lead to disasterous consequences.

Is this the product you bought?

http://www.cdaquatics.co.uk/catalog/imagemagic.php?img=images/fungus.jpg

Interpet is a UK based firm; their products are only available in the UK and parts of Europe. This is all I was able to find out on that.

Cures fish of fungus, mouthrot and finrot. Does not colour the aquarium water. Harmless to filters and all species of fish and plants.

This 100ml bottle is sufficient to treat 500 Litres (100 gallons).

Finrot, mouthrot/mouth fungus and cotton wool disease are common diseases of aquarium fish. Anti-Fungus & Finrot must be used as soon as diagnosis has been made to prevent the disease from spreading and causing fish death.

There is a handy pipettte and measuring cup, there is also a chart to calculate the required dosage as well as a chart to aid diagnosis of alternative fish problems.

Will this product do any good? I don't know.. I'm not able to find out very much about the brand or the umpteen products they sell for a multitude of different diseases, which mostly sound very much the same and adds even more confusion to this. I would be wary about that because of this. Most of the API, Mardell, and Seachem products are available worldwide and info about those products is more readily available.

At this point, I believe the best thing to do is keep the water clean while we focus more on getting a more accurate description and diagnosis of the problem.

I'll find some examples for you to look at and post again soon with a bunch more questions to ask you.