75 with 14" jaguar cichlid

i do not think that a 75 for a jag is bad, especially not bad enough to warrant getting rid of him. i cant afford a bigger tank, thats not bull****, its the truth. no i didnt know how big their max size was when i got him, but based on all the research and experience ive gained since then i feel that the 75 is a good enough home for him, not ideal, but good enough. i really feel that some of you guys are making this seem like it is much worse than it is. this isnt animal cruelty. he has enough space to carry out his natural functions in a clean environment and so far has proven to be healthy and grow quite nicely. he is now in a tank that will allow proper growth and health.

i have heard enough horror stories (too many of them involving pacus) to know what can go wrong. given the difference in behavior the 75 should be good enough. jags are large territorial fish staking out a territory and then staying in it defending it and eating whatever comes too close. his tank (and areas near it) is his territory and he naturally sits in wait of something (me or pellets). he can comfortably turn around and has enough length to move around as needed. i appreciate everyone's concern and recommendations and i do take them them into serious consideration, but so far still feel that the 75 is good enough.
 
since it is so blatantly obvious to a couple people how horrible of a setup a 75 is for a male jag, i would like to know what the actual risks are. since apparantly im so oblivious and neglectful of them, please educate me. i can see how the 12" wide 55 may have caused the slight (and effectively unnoticable in person) back arch (the pic greatly over exaggerates the severity of the deformity). but that shouldnt happen in an 18" wide 75. and as for water chemistry, that is simply dealt with by filtration (which asap will be upgraded to include a fluval 405) and continuing with my schedule of a 50% water change at least once a week. mental health should be fine considering he can defend and even "scare me away" from his territory. he isnt cooped up in the equivalent of a human in a closet or a bear in a cage. and i really feel it would be negligent of me to give him away to anyone but the best people i have talked to online. i strongly believe that feeding live food is one of the worst if not the worst thing you can do to a cichlid (among many other animas) and since it seems that most if not effectively all cichlid keepers feed live (at least occasionally) giving him to someone who feeds live would be going against what i have found to be the best thing for the animal. im assuming there are other aspects of the risks to his health that i have missed, so if anyone can explain or add ot them please do. please dont think im trying to be a smart***, i see how strongly some people think i am wrong and would like to better understand why, with something beyond "that tank is too small, you are a horrible fishkeeper".
 
reptileguy2727 said:
but that shouldnt happen in an 18" wide 75.
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No it shouldn't, but that statement has no relevance here since the damage has already been done. You have knowingly deformed your fish, and should be ashamed at least in some part for that. I understand you care for him, but I hope you have at least learned your lesson. We all have to start somewhere, and you have obviously improved the environment in which you keep your fish (which is good!). But you need to work towards further upgrading the tank size, or find your friend a new home.

reptileguy2727 said:
i strongly believe that feeding live food is one of the worst if not the worst thing you can do to a cichlid (among many other animas) and since it seems that most if not effectively all cichlid keepers feed live (at least occasionally)
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I highly disagree with this statement, and to me it shows your ignorance. I do not know ONE SINGLE cichlid keeper who feeds live foods (which I am assuming is feeder goldfish and guppies- live shrimp is often a tasty and very nutritional treat) to thier cichlids. Newbies maybe, but not serious keepers who take the time to research the dietary requirements of thier fish. Fish eat fish in the wild... so feeding live foods to your fish is not always a bad thing, of course depending on the nature of the live food you are giving your fish. More often then not feeder fish will do more harm then good.

:OT:
-Diana
 
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most of the cichlid keepers i deal with feed live food (thats how i find out they have cichlids, when they ask me for feeders (i work in a pet shop)). and i never said anything about a difference between amateurs or more advanced hobbyists. i believe any live food is unnecessary and harmful (worms, crayfish, shrimp, etc. included). i dont always follow nature for many aspects of keeping, most importantly feeding. just because they are fed live food in the wild doesnt mean thats whats best for them in captivity. one reason is you cant imitate the species or the conditions in which those wild food items are in, and since in nature almost all individuals die before they can become successfully breeding adults, i dont want to simulate something that weeds out individuals so intensely. i know it isnt all due to diet and live food, but part of it is. and i have even talked to more advanced hobbyists online that suggest live food, at least home raised ones (which i believe still carry some risks (although greatly reduced)). some non-amateur hobbyists have even suggested live feeder fish from stores "if it is a reputable dealer" or "as long as they look good", i think you and i can both see the fault in that argument. i did not knowingly cause or allow for the deformation to take place. keep in my mind that not one of you has seen this jag in person, and the deformation is so minimal that it is effectively unnoticable in person, you have to take my word for it since not one of you has seen it in person. i dont know how that pic so greatly exaggerates that very slight back curvature. my personal first hand experience has shown that a diet of only high quality pellets is the best thing and there is no reason to expose a fish to the risks (and poor nutrition, and increased aggression) brought on by live food.
 
the use of live foods is good in many occasions, and live brine shrimp for example that one raises should not be harmful to fish as long as it's not the only thing the fishes eat.
 
it may be more appropriate in some situations, but there are still risks. many species of fish tend to be better conditioned for breeding when live food is included in the conditioning regimen, but that doesnt mean there arent still some risks. there are a few species in the hobby that require live food, they simply wont take prepared food, ever. there are other species that need to be started on live, but can be acclimated over to a completely prepared diet. if you HAVE to feed live, than do so. but if a species will take prepared food, i dont see any reason to knowingly allow the risks of live food, i find that to be very negligent. i see better growth and health in individuals that are only fed high quality prepared foods, than those who are fed live food, even occasionally.
 
I really dont see the negatives of live foods in general, besides the obvious of carriers for disease (I highly disagree with the use of goldfish as feeders). Also the nutritional content is often lacking due to the inability of most hobbyests to gutload the feeders.

What do you think your pellet food is made from? Live animals! Fish meal! Fish guts! Shrimp! A whole wack of things!

If you gutload your feeders (such as guppies) with high quality foods, garlic, spiraluna, vitamins, etc... then all that will be transferred to the fish consuming the feeder. It is not always bad to go about things this way, of course depending on which cichlid you are feeding these to.... and which fish you are using as a feeder.

I agree with you in that if your cichlid will eat prepared foods, then by all means its a more cost-effective way to feed your fish... and also will be less of a pollutant in the tank. It will also help you monitor exactly the nutritional value of the foods you are feeding your fish.

Being a saltwater keeper I know certian fish will just not eat prepared foods, and must have live. Thus, I have researched the ways to go about feeding fish that will not eat prepared foods.


;)
-Diana
 
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even with gutloading, i have found that live food isnt as good as high quality pellets. i know that pellets are made with animals, but they are much more nutritionally complete than gutloaded feeders. the risk of illness is enough in my opinion to warrant not using live food unless absloutely necessary. yes there are ways to reduce the risks and increase the nutritional value of feeders, but there are still risks with feeders that arent present with pellets. and fish are more laid back (less aggressive) when fed only pellets making them more likely to get along without killing eachother, obviously a good benefit when housing more than one cichlid in a tank.
 
I personally think it is great that you have upgraded your tank size for him even if it isnt large enough. I also think its great that you havent stuffed a ton of other fish in there with him. However, I was surprised to hear you worked at a fish shop. I figured you were too young to have a job considering you cant afford a larger tank. If I were you, I would start saving. Just start putting back some money for a larger tank before he grows too large and stunts himself even more. Maybe you could put him in a display tank at the store you work at? Wouldnt that be great? Then you could use your 75 for fish better suited for it. Just because you cant afford a new tank now, doesnt mean you wont be able to later. If you are still living at home with your parents, then you can obviously put back some money..even a little at a time. How many bills can you actually have? I'm not trying to harp at you, but the people here really are knowledgeable and do know what they are talking about. Most of them have more years experience than you have been alive. Some of them are coming across rather harshly, but that is bc you just keep arguing the same point over and over. We all know how you feel, but we feel differently. We have all made mistakes in the past, but if you are given the knowledge to better yourself and your fish, why not take it? Can you take a better pic that will more accurately show the extent of the curvature? Im sure that will be possible if it really isnt that bad.
 
most of the cichlid keepers i deal with feed live food (thats how i find out they have cichlids, when they ask me for feeders (i work in a pet shop)). and i never said anything about a difference between amateurs or more advanced hobbyists. i believe any live food is unnecessary and harmful (worms, crayfish, shrimp, etc. included). i dont always follow nature for many aspects of keeping, most importantly feeding.
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:confused: :read: :confused: You say you work in a "petshop" !!?? OK you say "you didn't know max size for a Jag", so all your research was done post-purchase?? And yet after finding out that the fish could grow 18/20", you continued?? How & what you feed him or how often you do W/C's is :OT: The adequate housing is just as important if not more!! You seem to have all the info on every other aspect of care. You're constantly on defense about the 75gl tank (what the post is about)!! I think your info on housing is 'selective'. Anyone can tell you 'what you want to hear' but someone who cares will tell you what you NEED to hear!! Just because you might be doing better than the 'cichlid keepers' that you know isn't justification!! You can choose to ignore but no "TRUE AQUARIST" or "RESPONSIBLE ADVANCED HOBBYIST" would advise you to keep a big fish in a small tank because that's the best you can do!!! :thud:
 
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