ABS\PVC Question

Stias', I believe that is the most responsible observation on this thread. You're right. It isn't helpful to make broad generalizations, especially if someone has a specific concern. Hopefully, any newbies that are reading this thread are doing it with the understanding that it is more of a debate thread than one for specifics...
 
Stais: Are you serious?

Are you going to take me saying kills 100 percent of all bacteria literally? Im sure there is bacteria out there that would live from a soaking of bleach.. but what is the chance of that happening? Anyway, my point was that Bleaching an object before it enters a fish environment is ALOT safer then just running water over it, like slip suggests..
 
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First off, let me state for the record that I am not an expert on the materials in question and I don't really want to immerse myself into the middle of this stuff, but I will offer a bit of info and allow you to choose what you think is the best choice for you. Regarding ABS, I don't have first-hand manufacturing experience with that particular polymer, but for the past 17 years I have made about 370MMlbs annually of related material containing both butadiene and styrene.

I'd personally prefer to boil over bleach in this instance, if concerned about contamination. While ABS will soften at boiling temps (industry calls the temp at which a plastic will deform from heat "vicat" temp), it is not good to mix ABS (most plastics, including PVC, actually) with strong oxidizers (check the MSDS link quoted above - Section 7). Isn't chlorine bleach a strong oxidizer? PVC will generally soften at a considerably lower temp than ABS (about 70C), so boiling would have to be done very carefully.

As per the questions of what will be released if you make the water for the ABS too warm - almost all of it will be the resdiduals of the three basic building blocks of the polymer - Acrylonitrile, Butadiene, or Styrene. We're talking miniscule amounts here, folks, and they're still organic in nature. So if you're concerned, just run activated carbon in the tank for a bit and the nasties will be adsorbed. The link below lists common chemicals that can be adsorbed by activated carbon and assigns a simple rating to the ease of the adsorption process for that particular chemical.

http://www.aq-filtration.com/pdfs/ACTcarb.pdf

online2, when I add new plastic (any of the commonly available types) to my tanks, I just rinse them with hot tap water and put some fresh carbon in the tank. If you choose to boil or add bleach, good for you for taking the steps you feel necessary to protect your aquarium inhabitants.
 
OK .... again I have taken the liberty of editing/deleting parts of this otherwise productive thread. Discussions such as these are important in that they contain many different points of veiw while at the same time teaching new concepts to people that are not quite as experienced in the hobby yet, which is the only reason it has not been locked down yet. I still feel that there are things to be learned in this thread as long as we keep it in a productive realm.

That said and recognized, I owe my friend morleyz an apology. Twice now in this thread he has asked a legitimate question so that he can better understand the discussion, and twice now everyone involved this thread has overlooked his question in lieu of a petty argument ... and for that I am sorry. :(

morleyz let me see if I can better explain it.

Originally posted by morleyz
There's still one thing that I haven't seen a good answer to from the bleachers and boilers. What is is that we're trying to kill here? If I pull a rock out of the pond down the street, what exactly is it that's going to do harm? It just seems like there's this common misperception that the world around us is filled with viruses and bacterias, etc, etc...which is true of coure, but they're present everywhere. Do you really think you're bleaching is going to kill the bacteria? Maybe temporarily, but odds are they'll just get in another way. I guess I don't see any real harm in going that extra mile, but I still can't find a definitive answer from anyone about anything harm that would actually be done. You're probably taking a bigger risk adding a fish from the petstore than a rock from the neighbors pond.

Jeff, the idea and buzzword here is "precaution." We are careful not to say that it is imperative to bleach things as they are being moved from one location to another, but when we are talking about one environment that "can" contain deadly - or at the very least "harmful" - bacteria, it is safe to assume an ounce of precaution is worth a pound of cure. Ponds are really no different than aquariums when it comes to harmful bacteria that can be introduced from one location to the next. My question to you is, would you take something out of your friend's tank and put it in yours without taking precautions first ? Rock from pond to pond, or from riverbed to pond, or from riverbed to aquarium should be no different. There is an enormous amount of cross-contamination that can - and does - occur that can cause bacteria or a parastic infection. You are right in that the risk of this is always present, but the key is to minimize it.

I also want to point out to whomever it was that stated that bleach does not kill 100% of bacteria that from my experience in the medical field, I can tell you that bleach is the "most" fool-proof disinfectant around. It is the most trusted and most effective way to rid things of countless types of bacteria and has been found to be 99.9% effective against keeping harmful bacteria at bay. Yes, boiling will kill bacteria effectively, but there are types of bacteria that will actually reproduce at extremely high temperatures rather than be eliminated, so not even boiling is more effective than bleaching.

In any case morleyz, I hope this more thoroughly answers your questions and if you have any more, feel free to ask. It has been a challenge keeping the bickering to a minimum in this thread but one way or another your questions will be answered, I will make sure of that. Again, I apologize. :)
 
Thanks for everyone who replied, didn't mean for this to turn to big debate . Here what I did for the ABS, fill 5gal bucket with full hot water from the tap, let soak for hour, wipe the inside and outside couple of times and let dry. Added to my tank, but after few minutes I started hearing this clicking sound look over and my fish where holding signs that said "Stop pollution of our water" and "Are you trying to kill us?" Then woke up.:D Sorry had to put some humor in. But I do appreciate everyone opinion.

Love this Forum

Merry Christmas to everyone!

Online2
 
Originally posted by TnCgal
Yes, boiling will kill bacteria effectively, but there are types of bacteria that will actually reproduce at extremely high temperatures rather than be eliminated, so not even boiling is more effective than bleaching.

TnCgal, does this apply to steaming, too (I assumed steam was even hotter) ? I have one of those hand held steamer thingys (Eureka hotshot) and I have used it to "sterilize" some equipment. Am I misleading myself?

Thanks.
 
kveeti - Steam is hotter than water, however it will also rapidly cool, so I don't know what the exact tolerances of different bacteria are, but I would bet that prolonged boiling would be better than steaming. As far as the reproducing at higher temps, most of those bacteria would not be present on anything you'd be adding to your tank...they tend to be very exotic and live in places like hotsprings. The cool temperatures of your tap water would likely kill them off anyway.

TnC - I guess I've never had any problems that would make me that cautious. I can remember even as a kid adding rocks or other items without giving a second though as to what might be coming with them. I added 200 lbs of rock to my new tank without anymore than a good scrubbing with a wire brush and a thorough drying.

The thought of boiling or bleaching those rocks still makes me ill.

I guess I'd be really curious to know about any bacteria or other organisms that would be likely to survive the drying process (I assume through some spore form or something).
 
Aren't there a few invertebrate species that need a drought period in order for a new generation to come about? If you didn't get the eggs cleaned off of the rock via either thorough cleaning/boiling/bleaching or some other method, you might run the risk of having hydra or something....(nothing like rabid sea-monkeys to ruin your weekend)...otherwise, I can't think of a whole lot that could survive a very deep cleaning (with or without chemical assistance) coupled with a decent dry-out period of a couple of weeks in the sun...nothing that would do a whole lot of harm to a tank, anyhow. "uglies" like algae or something, maybe, but nothing that will kill your fish.... Nature has a way of purifying things, I believe. Sunlight is the best bleaching agent for organic materials out there, if you're willing to wait long enough for it to work...
 
I believe the fear of adding rocks from a pond or stream is unfounded. If something that awful was living in it, id think you would know it.

marine keepers add rock direct from the ocean constantly, and with very few negative side affects. There are a lot of positives however... this quote about sums it up

trying to have a marine tank without adding live rock (rock from the ocean with living things on it) is like trying to garden without earth worms, soil bacteria, and fungi
(Nick Dakin, Marine Aquarium)

I find it hard to believe that there are so many "nasties" out there that will kill things in your tank. We already know many bacteria go through the air and establish themselves in your tank, would this not be how they spread to an isolated pond? Also many of us seem to fear bacteria and try to pretend were stopping them from entering our aquariums. Fish themselves carry bacteria of numerous types on their skin, as well as live plants, inverts, and anything else you add from an established tank.

This quote also seems relevant

In my experience, it is more likely parasties will enter the aquarium with their hosts, rather via other sources
(John H Tullock, Reef Aquariums)

Most likely the ponds temperature, and Ph are likely quite different from your own tank, and has the potential to kill most everything on the rocks on its own. If anything did survive, it would most likely be spores of some type of algae or plant, nothing deadly to fish or other inhabitants.

Even though the vast majority of fish keepers likely use only rock found at a pet store, or bleach or boil their rocks, there has never been a case, to my knowledge, of someone putting rock from a stream or river directly into their tank and it causing major problems. Possibly some experimentation is due from a few of us to see what happens. In my opinion, the worst that could happen is the addition of rock covered in decaying and dying life. Most likely would result in an ammonia spike which might cause problems. Bleaching, nor boiling would do much for this condition, likely scrubbing or allowing the piece to cure in a seperate tub of water would be the only means to prevent this.


As far as PVC and ABS is concerned, there have been thousands (likely hundreds of thousands) of aquarium keepers that have used either plastic in their tank without first taking precautionary measures. Id say the vast majority of hobbyists do not take any precautionary measures, and as of yet, I have not heard of anyone having a problem.

I have numerous books that talk about using PVC and ABS and they all recommend just flushing the pipes with freshwater. None give any advice that there will be possible contamination of the piping, and they all seem to agree there is only dirt and dust to contend with.
 
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