Absolute DISASTER with neons

"... It seems you purchased lot more than the quantity that most hobbyist would buy at one time...

I'm not meaning to nitpick or sound critical, and I am saying this with only the best of intentions and with the highest respect for the AC members posting on this thread, but if you read from the start of this thread you will learn that Rachel did not order and purchase this huge quantity of fish.

Also, knowing the responsible, very experienced fishkeeper and seller of beutiful healthy stock that she is, Rachel would never order stock that she couldn't properly acclimate and house.

Also, early in the thread it was explained that she did not dump the fish in with her established tanks full of other fish.

Her local fish store called her with a mission of mercy: a huge shipment of Neons, Hatchets, and Otos, bound for parts unkown, to some other party that purchased them, were unable to be delivered.

They were facing certain death sitting in boxes somewhere. She, as well as a few others known to the folks at the lfs were called about this, and she and those several others each accepted only a portion of the something like 8,000 fish. She didn't have tanks to put the Neons, Hatchets, and Otos in separately.

She didn't put them in a community tank with her other fish, this was the only empty tank she had to isolate and/quarantined these fish.

Drop and plop was the only option in a case like this due to the murkey toxic water they were in. Acclimation with her hard water would have most likely killed them in minutes due to the toxicity of the ammonia.

Rachel at least gave these fish a chance to live, and it seems she has successfully saved the Hatchets and Otos.

Having said all that, I, too, appreciate all the help that our AC members are offering and would very much like to learn more from this tragic incident. With all respect.
 
Very well said, Mel. Rachel was put into a situation where she attempted to save the lives of fish who most certainly would have died if she had done nothing. The fish she took were slated for Poland and somehow ended up in York, PA. To be able to house that many fish without plans to do so, is in itself a feat. To be able to save as many as she has is quite an accomplishment.
 
Rachel,

Thank you for trying! I am sorry you had to experience the loss of them, it must have been devastating for you, and I appreciate that you tried! Hugs to you!
 
It is so tragic for those fish, and horrible for Rachel to have to go through this, watching those beautiful fish die en masse, helplessly.

Rach, I was wondering about post mortem as well. Do you have a microscope?

I keep leaning towards osmotic shock, but if Heiko is right and they were tank raised rather than wild caught, then maybe that wouldn't be the case.

However, I'm sure the water they were in was pretty acidic by the time you got them. The TDS in the water they had been in during the shipping process was, most likely, vastly different than the water in your area. It may have taken a toll on their systems and they just started to crash.

It is most strange that they were all fine until day 5 and then all started crashing.

The O2 question is a good one, Slappy. The Otos and Hatchets are fine, though.

I wonder, too, about the effect of the stress that the Neons experienced, being sensitive fish. The trip, the poor condition of the water they were in, the differences in the chemistry of the water all could be a factor, I imagine. The tank had no plants or cover for them to hide in, but I don't know if that would be a factor. It seems to me that their huge numbers should have offered some sense of security.

I'm rambling.... I wish we knew....
 
I will keep this updated with what i decide to do, if anything. i am leaning towards treating with a broad spectrum antiobiotic as I just cannot imagine that stress alone would take 5 or 6 days to manifest and then result in them dropping by the dozens so quickly. I really think something is going on here and just don't know what it is.

My biggest concern is that the neons could have had some sort of bacterial infection which caused thme to become ill when put in crowded conditions. I am worried that the otos and hatchets will fall ill next. There is not a way for me to know for sure I guess, but I am tempted to treat with antibiotics.
 
I think I would do the same thing under the circumstances. A good broad spectrum antibiotic might prevent whatever it was from spreading to the Hatchets and Otos. It does seem logical that they could all have had some kind of infection that manifested itself with sudden, devastating results.

Whatever you do - we know it will be for their best interests, and we're all pulling for your little guys and girls.

For those that were lost....I hope you can take some comfort in knowing that we all feel your efforts were heroic, in trying so hard to save them.

It was an act of compassion and courage to take on all those fish that were facing certain death, without you they had no chance at all. You gave them your best, Rach, we all know that.
 
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I would treat the tank as well. Hopefully the others are fine, but with that type of die off, if you don't you may very well be looking at this type of die off again with the other species.

And I can't put it as eloquently as Mel but.......Yeah, what she said!!!
 
I'm not meaning to nitpick or sound critical, and I am saying this with only the best of intentions and with the highest respect for the AC members posting on this thread, but if you read from the start of this thread you will learn that Rachel did not order and purchase this huge quantity of fish.

Also, knowing the responsible, very experienced fishkeeper and seller of beutiful healthy stock that she is, Rachel would never order stock that she couldn't properly acclimate and house.

Also, early in the thread it was explained that she did not dump the fish in with her established tanks full of other fish.

Her local fish store called her with a mission of mercy: a huge shipment of Neons, Hatchets, and Otos, bound for parts unkown, to some other party that purchased them, were unable to be delivered.

They were facing certain death sitting in boxes somewhere. She, as well as a few others known to the folks at the lfs were called about this, and she and those several others each accepted only a portion of the something like 8,000 fish. She didn't have tanks to put the Neons, Hatchets, and Otos in separately.

She didn't put them in a community tank with her other fish, this was the only empty tank she had to isolate and/quarantined these fish.

Drop and plop was the only option in a case like this due to the murkey toxic water they were in. Acclimation with her hard water would have most likely killed them in minutes due to the toxicity of the ammonia.

Rachel at least gave these fish a chance to live, and it seems she has successfully saved the Hatchets and Otos.

Having said all that, I, too, appreciate all the help that our AC members are offering and would very much like to learn more from this tragic incident. With all respect.


:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:


Even if we never figure out what happened to them, don't lose faith in yourself. We won't!
 
I did not test the water. I just got them out of it and into the tank. The tank has shown no signs of any cycling issues as I used a well established filter and put in teh algae gravel (to help the otos which I had heard could be difficult to supplement initially). I fed live teh first two days (bbs and microworms). I then added flake and golden pearls into the mix.I did daily water changes and cleaned out any uneaten food. The tank has been kept pristine. We did plop and drop acclimation as they were stressed and it was very late. The water was very cloudy that they came in and we were very worried about adding my hard water to the contaminated/ammonia water as the toxicity of ammonia and nitrite goes up as the hardness increases. This was not ideal, but was the best way to prevent further ammonia burn.

What is most confusing to me is that they died on day 5. I coul dhave understood it happening more in the first couple days. I have imported other fish (not in this volume) and have not had any problems. Just last week I got in habrosus cories and erythromicron rasboras, very very few losses.


When you get in fish, do you treat for any parasites? What would you recommend me doing now for the remaining fish (hatchets, otos, and some other pencilfish and tetras that came in as contaminants). They seem the same, but I am unsure of what to do. This whole experience has me so nervous I am dreaming about these **** fish at night.

All advice is welcome!!

If shippers know the concept/technique of fish shipping, they most likely have shipped fish in slightly acidic water than their ideal pH for a reason you just mentioned.
I've seen fish that came in cloudy water and did well and Ive seen fish that came out of clear but did not do well. Thus clarity of water doen not mean prove the condition is acceptable.
FOr example, when I received 10 boxes of cardinals (approx 500/Bx) at the same time, I found that that water condition of each box are not always the same thus will approach each box accordingly which yield smaller mortality rate..
For I know, it could have been the condition of your tank water which may have cause this mishap , Who know?

If your water is hard and alkaline in your location, there are few things you can do by utilizing what you already know which may help reducing chances of such mishap.
Shipping method have improved and improving as industry utilizes what we already know. And hobbyist whi is receiving such shipments should be ready. By learning and improving technique from such mishap/errors, I have made drastic decrease in their mortality rate.
I dont know the whole scenario with you but the following are the general steps I would've taken.
1. Styrofoam box that came with shipment can be utilized as acclimationg pan. Usually box shipment of f/w fish would contain b/n 2-3 G.
You already know the possibility that this water is bound to have some ammonia with lower pH (acidic or lower than 7.4) thus idea is to add tank water to one side of styro and drain out on the other thus dilution of [NH3]. This is better than just introducing fish out of bag to tank w/o acclimation.
***Punch lots of holes on on side of styroform with pen. Lay filter pad on this side so small fish dont get suck in. You can place this styro inside cat litter pan so water from styro can drain into cat litter pan. YOu can have small pond pump with hose to drain water from litter pan.
I have built channels on concrete floor of my fish room with diy sump pit and sump pump so I did not have to carry bucket when my attention is needed with fish.
Pardon my drawing but you can diy some tools or simple IV tubing with control know will do.
I would do fast drip in the beginning to dilute/drain ammonia from acclimating container (styro). Testing is important fro this reason. slow down with time.

Above is not the case with tank being soft/medium hard or slightly acidic water.

I would have at least added chemical to tank (provided no fish in it) temporarily lower the pH close to bag water then flush the acclimating pan but much slowly.

Again, I always chosen the method depending on each water condition. I would have few batches of reserve prepared when expecting shipments.

Always log the conditions, actions taken and results. You will be surprised how much you will learn or improve your skills/techniques from such records.

Bear in mind that most are shipped with anesthetics depending on duration of trip. Thus such fish requires more darker surrounding and gentle handling. Even their new home (tank) should be dark.

One more thing. Since these fish were in small amt of water thus do not introduce new fish in very deep water.
Since water from tank have been used during acclimation, you should leave the water level as is as long as filter(s) is/are running.
You should add water gradually over long span (all depends on condition of water in the tank and behavior of fish).

If you dont understand any of above, lmk for next time..

I will do whatever i can to assist.

Medication on the newly arrived from long trip. It all depends on the situation.
I will try my best to avoid meds unless really needed, especially med containing heavy metals or with high toxicity level.

As far as rest of the fish, I would leave them alone provided water is up to par or fish shows otherwise.

Most Neons were transhipped from SE Asia. Such long trip could have adverse effects on fish , especially improperly handled both before and after. Would you mind to share info where you got these fish.
I am trying to get situated with few specifics.

Hope all goes well soon!

As far as nitrite in the bag, high amt of dissolved mineral are actually beneficial in controlling toxicity of nitrite.
 
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