Anothre Cycling Question

[Luca Brazzi]

Ive got another test....

I just ordered some Sodium Nitrite.

When I get it Ill setup a scenario (bucket of water with media in it) with some Virgin media to see if it can produce Nitrates while the ammonia level is at 5ppm. If I can produce Nitrates from Virgin media with an ammonia concentration of 5ppm...

Done deal.

 

[RTR]

Agree w/MP - unless he's quoting me - an early SW tank of mine was fishless cycled, nitites first, then ammonia. There is no obvious biological reason why it should not work either way, despite the years of anecdotal comments to the contrary - whether the nitrite-oxidizers are less hardy, slower growing, sensitive to high levels of ammonia, what ever. In a monitored process, you should be able to control both metabolite levels.

My personal thought is that frequently the original inoculation of bacteria is likely to be insufficient, and the nitrite-eaters have starved and died off before the ammonia eaters are in full production.

 

[MP]

So, you've done it too, Robert? Did you use NaNO2?

 

[Luca Brazzi]

RTR brought up a point that has been bugging me throughout my fishless cycle. When I started I added a few handfuls of gravel from an established tank. This gravel SHOULD contain both bacteria colonies however since I was not producing Nitrites in significant amounts till about 2 weeks after I started... there was little to no food around for the nitrite eaters.... So wouldnt they die off?

 

[RTR]

None of us know how long these beasts can go without an energy source. A week is safe, 10 days has been reported, beyond that nobody has enough info to say - tank parameters could influence the outcome as well, but we just don't know. All we know is that for these bacteria they are pretty slow-growing, they are not spore-formers, and cannot metabolize unless attached. With large inocula, there is rarely any issue. The problem is that large inocula may not be easy to get for newcomers - thus the suggestion to re-inoculate once nitrites start climbing if there has been much (undefined "much') lag.

I don't remember which cation the salt was, K+, Na+, or other. This was many many years ago. It was probably based on solubility of the salts. Any highly soluble nitrite should do the same job. I do remember it was slow - the protcol was for very slow increases, and I followed it closely. First weeks were increasing nitrites, then ammonium was added, and finally nitrite dosing tapered down as ammonia was maintained. There were no hitches, no problems. But I would not have done it if I had not been in the lab. Chris' technique is sooo much easier.

 

[MP]

Thank you, Robert!

 

[Luca Brazzi]

So are you saying (RTR) that adding the Nitrites and Ammonia at the same time will tend to complicate things over Chris' method?

 

[RTR]

The decades-old protocol I followed certainly did. Today, with our ease of testing and resetting desired levels on materials such as ammonia and nitrite, no, probably not. A bit more complex yes, but not at all unreasonable.

You might do well to plot the curves out (concentration vs. time) for both or all three nitrogen forms, so that you get a feel for how much nitrite you need to add yourself versus hom much will be generated from ammonia - it might save you a few water changes.

I would track the pH and if needed the KH. I don't know your alkalinity, but with two processes going at max growth rates, I'd monitor and add baking soda if required.

Then when you are done, you can do a nice article ---hint, hint, hint.

 

[Luca Brazzi]

Ok... Its almost 2 months now... I defintely have Ammo, and Nitrite eaters, however, I think the Ammo eaters far exceed the Nitrite eaters. This would account for the fact that I always have so much Nitrite. Yesterday, I did 3, 100% water changes within a couple of hours of each other. I was finally able to get my Nitrites down to .2ppm. The Nitrates are down to around 20ppm. After the 3rd change, I added a little ammo to the tank. Within a few hours, the Nitrite was back up to 2ppm. Those Ammo eaters are producing way more Nitrite than the Nitrite eaters can consume.

So... what I plan to do is to stop adding ammo for awhile to starve the Ammo eating boogers a little. Maybe I can reach a balance somewhere.

 

[wetmanNY]

Consider the possibility, mentioned before in this thread, that the NH3 you are adding is simply toxic to the NO2-metabolizers. NO2 is produced (you are testing for it), but the NH3 has eliminated the NO2 eaters.