Anothre Cycling Question

I would - but it means you would have to revert to ammonia feeding to support the nitrification bacteria during the tank QT period.

Part of my extreme caution on such is that the Cichlids are such long-lived fish - it seems such a waste to risk fish that should live to their teens. I know it is unreasonable of me, but I'll do things with short-lived fish I would not consider with Cichlids or puffers or loaches or most catfish.
 
I guess Ive just gotten a little frustrated, and decided to try something different. There must be some reason why I cant seem to fully establish Nitrite eaters. My Alk is fine, my pH is fine, my Temp is fine, the Ammo eaters are great...


Maybe its my DIY Biotower? Ive got 2 gallons of Bioballs for biomedia and when the pump is on (its on all the time), the water level in the sump is about 1" above the bottom of the balls. When I simulate a power outtage, the water level in the sump rises to about 3/4 full. I havent added more gravel from an established tank since my Nitrites started to rise (I did add some in the very beginning), but I shouldnt have to since from the amount of Nitrate in the water, I have Nitrite eaters just not in large enough quantities.

At what rate do the Nitrite eaters reproduce?
 
Luca, I think thru your actions you have done away with the greatest advantages of fishless cycling: not exposing any fish to ammonia/nitrite and not exposing your tank to disease-ridden feeders. Now you've got a bunch of fish that you don't really want (at least it sounds that way) that may or may not be eaten by the africans (not all of whom SHOULD be given feeders) and your tank still isn't cycled. You've had access to lots of very informed people who have been helping you with the fishless cycle, and you bailed on that because of what an LFS salesperson told you?

This isn't meant to be a flame, but I'm puzzled as why anyone would bail at this point...

:confused:

Jim
 
It was helpful to read about Lucca's experience here since I am in the same process. . .

I have some questions though about this cycle. To start is the time it takes to cycle dependent on the size of the tank? I am assuming the answer is yes, but can someone confirm that.

Secondly, what is a reasonable time frame for a 75G to cycle? I am on the second day and the ammonia hasn't dropped at all. Just curious what the normal time frame should be. I am empathizing with Lucca and getting impatient for some indication of progress.

thanks,
Dan
 
The length of the cycle is related to the size of the bacterial colonies (two different types are required) used to start. A small inoculation requires a long time to develop. Problems during the development period with pH/KH problems can extend the time markedly.

For me, times have varied from little more than ammonia challenges to confirm clearance of ammonia when mature filters were moved to new tanks(see note 1 below), up to 2-4 weeks with new but inoculated filters on new tanks. I have seen some folks on these boards require months - usually because there were problems along the way(see note 2 below).

Note 1: Having multiple tanks with no disease issues, it is easy for me to run-in filters on existing tanks. Adding a filter to a mature tank will allow it to become inoculated with the required bacteria. Even if that filter develops colonies too small to serve as mature filters on new tanks, they will be well started. If run on my largest tanks of messy fish, they are likely to be mature when moved to smaller tanks. This is cheating in a sense, as fishless cycling was intended for folks without existing tanks - but it certainly helps the rest of us as well.

Note 2: The commonest problem is pH crashing from low KH water. Nitrification is an acid-generating process, it uses up the natural buffer in the water. If the water is poorly buffered to start, and high titers of ammonia are used, then if the pH and KH are not monitored the tank may crash. If the pH crashes the nitrification bacteria will be harmed or killed.
 
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JSchmidt... not to flame but...

I didnt change what I was doing because of what a salesperson told me. Im not NEARLY that naive. Ive been trying to cycle this tank for over 2 months. I am grateful for the assistance Ive received from folks around here, however, something is missing.

Not to say that there havent been plenty of folks who have successfully fishless cycled their tanks but... Plain and simple...noone has been able to explain the issues Ive encountered. My water parameters were fine pH,Alk, etc. I did everything by the book (except cutting back on the ammo which I found out wasn't necessary anyway). Yet still... high Nitrite.

So... I decided to try something new.

The fish in my tank are not being exposed to extreme levels of toxins. My ammo level is at .25ppm (although I dont know why this is since I had a colony capable of devouring 5ppm/day) , and Nitrites are at 1ppm and seem to be moving lower.


As far as disease goes... A) I could get a disease from the several Africans I am planning to buy anyway. There are no guarantees. B) There is no guarantee that these fish will contaminate my tank. C) The reason I decided to start a tank in the firstplace was to have another view of nature. Diseases are a part of nature. You see... most people view Ich as something to get rid of because it screws up their view of what their fish are supposed to look like. However, there is beauty in ALL life even the relationship between the fish, and the so called parasite. So... Im not afraid of it. If I get it... Ill kill it... beauty and all.

As far as your statement that I now have a bunch of fish that I dont want. I did say that I might nuke the whole lot of em and wait a week before adding the Africans but... Ive grown somewhat attached to some of these boogers. Yeah... they arent the prettiest things in the world but... For example... this morning when I checked out the tank, I noticed that there was a teeny weeny little wiggler running around in there that wasnt there before (or at least I never saw it before). Little Jepetto... Maybe Ill build a small tank for them and move them there.

I guess Im just not one of those I-want-to-impress-my-friends-because-I-have-a-perfect-specimen-of-X-in-captivity types (with emphasis on the in-captivity part).

As far as Im concerned. Unless you plan to throw 20 fish in your tank at once. Fishless cycling is a waste of energy. Just get a few fish, and go for it.

Can you tell the difference between a fish that has been used to fishy cycle a tank and a fish that has been placed in an already cycled tank? No.
 
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Glenstorm...

Whats your filtration setup?

Are you seeing Nitrates yet?

I dont think that the size of the tank matters that much in reducing the amount of time the fishless cycle takes. What matters more is how much bacteria you start off with. The more you have the better. My problem is that my Nitrite eaters dont seem to be growing fast enough to catch up to the ammo eaters. Before I switched to fishy, my Nitrite was off the chart. Its getting lower now (I think due to the lower ammo and hence lower Nitrite production from the ammo eaters)

What Im trying to see by this experiement is this: Do I have enough Ammo and Nitrite eaters to support the bioload I plan to have when I put the 15-20 Africans in there? If so, then Im done once the Nitrite drops to 0. To heck with the 5ppm stuff because if thats not what my fish will generate... what's the point? Whats the point in growing bacteria colonies capable of supporting a far larger bioload than I plan to have? If what I currently have can support these 40 fish at 0 ppm ammo/nitrite... thats all I need since the Africans will be just as small as these guys and there will only be 15-20 of them.

As for the potential of catching some disease/parasite goes... thats another story :)
 
Lucca,

I have an AC500 that I seeded with used floss from a whisper3. I am also using that whisper3. The reason the floss moved to AC500 is long unimportant story. . . ;)

You asked if I have seen nitrAtes, but i thought I am looking for nitrItes. Anyhow I haven't seen any of either. . .


It seems that we are going to have twin tanks, since I am also going to be stocking with Africans. Which lake(malawi, tang, victoria) are you planning on using?
 
I havent decided on which Africans yet. From talking to different folks Ive come across 2 basic types when it comes to these fish 1) The Purist. This is the person who will only stock with either Haps, Mbuna or Tangs.... no mixing. and 2) The person with a little of everything in there. I think Im going to be a type 2. Keeping the pH around 8, the Alk high, and feeding a variety of foods... vegetable and high protein you should be able to keep them all healthy.

I asked about the Nitrates because when I was doing the fishless cycle, I started getting Nitrates long before my ammo went to 0 (go figure). By the time my Ammo finally went to 0, I had over 150ppm Nitrates. Since then my Nitrites have been off the scale. Even after several 100% water changes, the Nitrites would quickly creep back up. I would have to dilute the sample several times to get a reading somewhere on the Nitrite scale. Since I stopped the fishless and added the diseased feeders :D, my Nitrites have been dropping steadily... they are currently somewhere between .2 and .5 ppm. As RTR mentioned... when I do remove the feeders (by whatever means) I will be better off QTing the tank for a week before adding the Africans so if there are any parasites...

During that time I will have to add a little ammo daily to keep the tank cycled. Yeah... if I was planning to add several large fish in there Id probably need a bacteria colony large enough to devour 5ppm ammo/day. But as it turns out, Ill be replacing the 40 guppies (oops maybe its only 34 now :D) with 15 - 20 Africans... if that
 
I have a question...

As some of you know... This is my first tank and I built my entire system from scratch (75 gallon acrylic Tank/Stand/Canopy/Sump/BioTower). My question is this: Currently I have 2 gallons of Bio-Balls in my biotower. According to the documentation for the Bio-Balls each gallon is capable of supporting 45-60 gallons of marine life. Could it be that I dont have enough surface area for bacteria? Maybe due to how the water flows over the balls or not having enough balls :D to house the Nitrite eaters? Maybe my Nitrite eaters have been mainly growing on the rocks/substrate that I placed in the tank weeks after I started cycling instead of on the balls?
 
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