Caution! Extremely Opinionated Posting!

[gtclipse01]

Ohhhh man... I agree with most of it, but there are a TON of people over at monsterfishkeepers that would take major offense to the part about arowanas/stingrays etc, and they go to GREAT lengths to make sure that their tanks are both adequate and "stimulating." I agree that putting them in too small a tank is really unfortunate... and overstocking is incredibly inconsiderate to the fish... but a few peacock bass, or pirahna, or arowanas, or stingrays, etc. are going to do just fine and be perfectly happy in a 400G. Their size does not make overstocking any different, it is wrong and irresponsible regardless of the type of fish.

Keeping a fish because they are "totally badass" is 100% acceptable, given that they are adequately housed. That's exactly the same thing as keeping fish because they are "incredibly beautiful," is it not? People have different definitions of beauty... I personally think that arowanas, stingrays, peacock bass, dovii, pirahnas, etc. are gorgeous fish.

That's like looking at the snake hobby and saying that people should only keep garter snakes and should give their boas and pythons in to the zoos. It's like looking at the lizard keepers and saying that monitors have no place in the hobby.. or even telling dog owners that dobermans, rottweilers, mastiffs, and german shepherds are classless and cannot possibly be beautiful. Think with an open mind, there are a lot of people who do keep those fish properly, and those are some of the most beautiful tanks I've ever seen.

There is a HUGE difference between the solid part of your argument, which is essentially class vs. trash, and the part that I objected with above, which relates to preference/opinion and is entirely another matter. I suggest you try to make the "large predatory fish" point on monsterfishkeepers.com, and see what they have to say. Go look at some of the tank shots, and I'm sure you will find PLENTY of fish that are kept in sufficent environments. You will find some overcrowding, but it's here too. Just because the fish are larger doesn't make it any more right or wrong.

Sploke, you make a very valid point. I especially like-

What I read is "everyone's tank should be an individual expression of art!" and then "but that art has to adhere to X parameters".

By its very fundamental definition, art is subjective, and thus using that to paint a broad brush stroke between what is good and what is bad just doesn't make sense.

In my experience, I have found that once a fishkeeper gains that level of understanding, the "art" of the tank as you define it, follows on its own more often than not.

The first two sentences sum up my feelings on this perfectly. The third sentence is also a very valid point- a lot of people start out with the gaudy decorations, and begin to subconsciously flow towards a more natural look as they learn more about the fish they keep- I believe this is largely a product of seeing the beautifully put together natural tanks kept by others online. I also see a lot less of the cheesy decor these days than I did 10-15 years ago.. I think that more people are heading in the direction OP spoke of anyways as the hobby itself matures.

However, OP, I don't think you're going to get very far by trying to convince people what shape of tank, or what type of fish they should buy. Yes, the ADA stuff is awesome and beautiful. It is also entirely too expensive for most of us younger hobbyists on college budgets... and entirely too time consuming for those of us with other hobbies, school, work, friends, and a significant other to soak up what's left of our free time.

Do I take the 6 gallon frameless cube with cardinal tetras, a set of planting tools, ADA substrate, and a glass CO2 diffuser? Or do I side with value, and get a 90G with stand, lights, and filter on craigslist for the same price, and throw in a breeding pair of BGJD's? To each his own, but my Dempseys are doing very well A parting phrase-"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

P.S. - Trust me, there are plenty of **** wines that come in nice-looking packages too.

 

[DeeDeeK]

On the boards I often see the word natural tossed about as if it had significance with what we hobbyists do. NOTHING we do in a glass box is "natural", unless we leave it outside, let rainwater top it off and let it be "naturally" colonized by algae and those critters that occur in ponds, mud puddles and drainage ditches. There is certainly nothing natural in our filtration, lighting and the manicured gardens I've seen touted as "natural".

We do this hobby because it makes us happy to do so or we wind up quitting. So if an aquarist is happy with her tank, and her fish are healthy and thriving, isn't her opinion on her art the only one that matters?

Mark

Yes, yes! Aquaria are artifice, artificial, craft and not nature. I think of aquarium keeping as the craft of mixing natural and artificial elements into a thriving and reasonably stable aquatic community in a transparent box. Deep sand and well rooted plants plus a few burrowing critters are the mixture of natural elements I prefer, and of course the many bacteria which colonize the sand and filter. Shrimps and fishes are natural, too - even if artificially bred.

Naturally we do a hobby because it makes us happy, but as you've said, your tastes change. Surely none of us is an island, creating entire new aesthetic traditions and craft methods of our own in isolation from other opinions and manners of seeing and arranging things. No, the individual aquarist's opinion is in no way the only one that matters. Everything we do in a hobby is shaped by the past and present of that hobby, which is composed of the actions, knowledge, and opinions of those practicing the hobby. We are, however, the arbiters of our own taste and preferences and are free to accept, be influenced by, or outright reject the existing structures, knowledge, and opinions we are exposed to. Yes, we do it for ourselves generally, but sometimes we do it to compete for best tank or to show off to friends, or sell our services as professional aquarists. No craftsperson or artist works in a vacuum, "no man is an island," and all that stuff. This is why the exchange of opinions, even strong opinions, is useful. I have been shaped by the opinions and traditions of others - Dutch aquariums, Amano's fantastic designs (not ADA stuff but the actual master's), and Walstadt.

As I see it, large segments of the worldwide community of aquarists are held in place by the inertia of strong, ingrained opinions and "common sense" knowledge, reducing the vitality and range of expression of many hobbyist's practice by creating invisible and/or unquestionable limits to what can and can't be done. So I push against them as regards aesthetics, use of deep substrates, and means and techniques for lighting, arguing against simplistic and only partly effective rules i.e. inch per gallon, watts per gallon, ad absurdum.

My strongest opinions lie in the direction of enrichment and even spirituality/expression of the human spirit and how our choices effect the aesthetics and how the aesthetic effect our essential selfs and therefore effect any further choices we make.

Beyond having a 'good eye' or artistic sensibilities, we all have some creativity and a tendency to arrange our surroundings to our liking and to practice some sort of crafts or skilled, constructive activity, and maybe sports fits in there somewhere, too. We also have the fostering of plant and animal life as a part of our makeup. It is my firm belief that by mindfully, conscientiously engaging with our world and its life, in this case via aquariums as a hobby, we exercise and enrich our minds and spirits. There is no need to be a great or even a good artist by anyone's standards - the secret is to be seriously engaged in our activities, thoughtful, and to invest a bit of ourselves in a kind and mindful way.

Those are the parameters I deeply believe in. Within them, I see endless possibilities for creative expression through craft, which I call art. Without those things, I see nothing but mud pies and dog sh*t sandwiches for the heart and mind's dinner.

 

[DeeDeeK]

Ohhhh man... I agree with most of it, but there are a TON of people over at monsterfishkeepers that would take major offense to the part about arowanas/stingrays etc, and they go to GREAT lengths to make sure that their tanks are both adequate and "stimulating." I agree that putting them in too small a tank is really unfortunate... and overstocking is incredibly inconsiderate to the fish... but a few peacock bass, or pirahna, or arowanas, or stingrays, etc. are going to do just fine and be perfectly happy in a 400G. Their size does not make overstocking any different, it is wrong and irresponsible regardless of the type of fish.

Keeping a fish because they are "totally badass" is 100% acceptable, given that they are adequately housed. That's exactly the same thing as keeping fish because they are "incredibly beautiful," is it not? People have different definitions of beauty... I personally think that arowanas, stingrays, peacock bass, dovii, pirahnas, etc. are gorgeous fish.

I suggest you try to make the "large predatory fish" point on monsterfishkeepers.com, and see what they have to say. Go look at some of the tank shots, and I'm sure you will find PLENTY of fish that are kept in sufficent environments. You will find some overcrowding, but it's here too. Just because the fish are larger doesn't make it any more right or wrong.

:nutkick: Owww! Ya got me! (except a kick there doesn't quite mean the same thing to me) Har har har! Oh, I like the big showoff fish, too. I just react to the thoughtless, showoff fishkeepers who keep to big, to many fish in ugly tanks and then generalize. Hey, we all love what we love and my love of microrasboras and teeny little tanks will never usurp a badass big fish lover's love. I'm just a gadfly hunting for opinions and information in these threads and forums. Just wait 'til I start blasting crystal red shrimp breeding!

However, OP, I don't think you're going to get very far by trying to convince people what shape of tank, or what type of fish they should buy. Yes, the ADA stuff is awesome and beautiful. It is also entirely too expensive for most of us younger hobbyists on college budgets... and entirely too time consuming for those of us with other hobbies, school, work, friends, and a significant other to soak up what's left of our free time.

Do I take the 6 gallon frameless cube with cardinal tetras, a set of planting tools, ADA substrate, and a glass CO2 diffuser? Or do I side with value, and get a 90G with stand, lights, and filter on craigslist for the same price, and throw in a breeding pair of BGJD's? To each his own, but my Dempseys are doing very well A parting phrase-"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

P.S. - Trust me, there are plenty of **** wines that come in nice-looking packages too.

I hope I didn't come off anywhere as an ADA saleswoman! I like some of their products quite a bit but am simply not impressed by their marketing, cookie cutter instructions, or pricing. Still, if they offer what I want and no one else does, they fall on the side of value even at their prices. For me, that is. Not that I can afford them.

I didn't mean to say only cuboid, frameless tanks are OK or that only cpds, axelrod's rasbora, and endler's livebearers are cool fish to buy! NO NO NO! But I do state that some shapes of aquariums are more suited to or are easier to compose nice arrangements and create nice design within and are less distracting than other shapes. I stand by that statement but if you want a stretch hex, hemi-cylinder, or any other shape, by all means. I'll still say they're distracting in general. I also stand by the idea that certain size tanks are suited to certain sized fishes.

Hey, the whole idea of my original posting was to stir up discussion, which it has and it's great, but I'm more interested in knowing about monster fish and monster aquarium setups and how they can be beautiful or fascinating, or interesting, and humane than how my insistent opinions about fish species, aquarium formats, gravel colors, equipment, etc. aren't going to get far or aren't valuable.

Contradiction is interesting to me only when there is information, interesting opinion backed by some argument, and alternate suggestions. Less "why not" and more "how to."

If the beginner aquarist reads all this and is confused or feels daunted, I suggest ignoring it altogether or maybe just taking away some thoughts about mindfulness, intention, and fish welfare.

Anyhow, I push a certain aesthetic. Big whup. Amano does, too, and so too is there an established tradition coming from Europe of the "Dutch" aquarium. These are styles and approaches to aquaria, not the be-all and end-all to the hobby.

 

[RodInCALIFORNIA]

I find it amazing this is even a topic anyone has the time to ponder. I really do wish I had the free time to mutter how awful my neighbors aquarium's decor is, if I dont like the way it looks I can go home and not look at it.
This is just silly.
This is still the USA and if you want to make your tank look like a bag of skittles go for it and have fun. And when my fish stop popping out babies, have a depressed look and have a massive weight gain I might consider the deco has them depressed but until then the brighter more neon colored aquarium items I can find I'm gonna buy and use.
And so should anyone else who likes it bright and colorful.
If people have the time to rant and rave on someone's choice and taste in an aquarium they need to sit back and examine why they have so little going on in life.

 

[DeeDeeK]

I find it amazing this is even a topic anyone has the time to ponder. I really do wish I had the free time to mutter how awful my neighbors aquarium's decor is, if I dont like the way it looks I can go home and not look at it.
This is just silly.
This is still the USA and if you want to make your tank look like a bag of skittles go for it and have fun. And when my fish stop popping out babies, have a depressed look and have a massive weight gain I might consider the deco has them depressed but until then the brighter more neon colored aquarium items I can find I'm gonna buy and use.
And so should anyone else who likes it bright and colorful.
If people have the time to rant and rave on someone's choice and taste in an aquarium they need to sit back and examine why they have so little going on in life.

What a mean-spirited posting! I mean, really, if you have nothing better yourself to do than pan and dis other people's posts, you really might find time to read and ponder them more closely before you try flaming a whole thread and the people who've been participating in it. Honestly!

I wonder at your motives and your state of mind. "... so little going on in life," indeed is a needless insult. This thread was started to provoke discussion and the exchange of ideas - if you rather stick to pablum for your intellectual diet and then spit your bile at those of us who prefer richer fare then by all means go ahead. Just know how sad and unimpressive mean-spirited postings such as yours seem to me and surely others.

I have a life which I enjoy. I write, am published, and get paid for things I write. Part of my process is to engage other people in debate and discussion around topics I find interesting. Now that you know a bit more about me, perhaps you can retort with more relevant insults if it is really your goal to be hurtful. If so, please come up with something really painful and nasty which will put me in my place so we can get this over with and you can move on to threads you find less insulting and threatening.

Oh, and I never mistook the USA for anything else and I enjoy the right to call a spade a spade. If your aquarium seems tacky to me, I've certainly got the right to say so. As for what I think about your gauche comments, well, I've already said enough.

 

[RodInCALIFORNIA]

I enjoy my right to express my thought's as I see fit and to make fun of people who feel they are above others.
Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing indeed.

 

[Slappy*McFish]

opcorn:

 

[Ozymandias]

opcorn:

:iagree:

 

[cockroach]

What a mean-spirited posting! I mean, really, if you have nothing better yourself to do than pan and dis other people's posts, you really might find time to read and ponder them more closely before you try flaming a whole thread and the people who've been participating in it. Honestly!

I wonder at your motives and your state of mind. "... so little going on in life," indeed is a needless insult. This thread was started to provoke discussion and the exchange of ideas - if you rather stick to pablum for your intellectual diet and then spit your bile at those of us who prefer richer fare then by all means go ahead. Just know how sad and unimpressive mean-spirited postings such as yours seem to me and surely others.

I have a life which I enjoy. I write, am published, and get paid for things I write. Part of my process is to engage other people in debate and discussion around topics I find interesting. Now that you know a bit more about me, perhaps you can retort with more relevant insults if it is really your goal to be hurtful. If so, please come up with something really painful and nasty which will put me in my place so we can get this over with and you can move on to threads you find less insulting and threatening.

Oh, and I never mistook the USA for anything else and I enjoy the right to call a spade a spade. If your aquarium seems tacky to me, I've certainly got the right to say so. As for what I think about your gauche comments, well, I've already said enough.

RIC, accept the burn with humility. This is a forum which is aimed at discussions about fish and that is what is going on here. The title actually came with a warning label. If you don't like it don't read it. No need for uncalled for personal attacks.

I am just enjoying watching the debate go back and forth.

 

[DeeDeeK]

I enjoy my right to express my thought's as I see fit and to make fun of people who feel they are above others.
Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing indeed.

Well, I have to agree that freedom of speech is a wonderful thing and there's no reason not to enjoy your rights of free expression. Just expect any and all kinds of replies, responses, and retorts.

I've re-read my original posting and point taken, it is snobbish and I do look down my nose at certain aesthetics in that writing. One thing this may have done is draw comments and input but I see that it also is overbearing and could be daunting to the novice.

Anyone who reads anything I write in these forums should take the warning, "caveat emptor!" or however the Latin for "buyer beware" is spelled. I try to write authoritatively and clearly because that is the sort of material I learn a lot from and enjoy. "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium," by D. Walstadt is a good example of what I'm talking about. I hope that readers of my rants and ramblings take what they can use or would like to use and adapt for their own purposes and that they'll discard anything that they don't care for. Oh, and not to personalize my taste and opinions - I'm just a highly subjectively oriented doofus and snobbery and elitist attitudes are like this season's fashions - I'l discard them soon and move on to the next thing.

Apologies for this apology. I'm an apologist and a gadfly but I really to want to make a positive contribution and if retractions and rethinking is called for, so be it.