Caution! Extremely Opinionated Posting!

[Zbbal]

When reading your article it made me think of nature. Ships sink in the ocean, waves crash against shorelines, rapids create bubbly turbulence in rivers, and any body of water isn't a rectangle. So it doesn't seem far fetched for me to put a fake ship in my tank, to have a bubbler, or to have an oddly shaped tank.

A few years ago two of the older bridges where I live were torn down. Pieces of the bridge were used to make an artificial reef. I'm sure that a giant bridge underwater looks rather unappealing to the human eye, but to the many fish inhabiting there, it's a safe haven for them. It's benefiting the fish.

I decorate a tank according to how I want it. I'm careful to try and meet the requirements of my fish, but I don't think they care whether they live in a fake skull or in a natural rock cave.

 

[jpappy789]

Keep in mind that this is not the USA...this is the internet and a forum that spans the globe...and while the mods here are pretty liberal on letting certain things slide for the sake of discussion, there is a TOS that we all agree to...and I see no reason why we should leave this discussion and retort comments about people's personal lives...

Anyways, I've found this thread to be intriguing. I personally despise the tackiness of certain aquariums but people can do what they want. I do not see the OP trying to force anyone to conform to a specified way of decorating an aquarium. I do see thoughts on how decor and the naturality of such affects fish health.

What I find interesting, just thinking about this, is the idea that the "unnatural" decor that many newer people use is what draws people into keeping fish. We wanted something that looked nice and were probably not aware of the beauty that live plants and actual hardscape provide. Perhaps it is more of a progression (in terms of aesthetics) in the eyes of the hobbyist. I didn't know of people keeping the amazing planted tanks until I got further into the hobby itself. What is also interesting, though, is that more and more often I see plants recommended to new people joining the forum. Although I would hardly consider those people to be a good sample of all new people in the hobby it seems to be "trickling down" (for lack of a better term) slowly but surely.

Maybe that is just me rambling too..

 

[RodInCALIFORNIA]

Neon deco alert - advert your eyes if you dont like bling bling

DeeDeeK i have enjoyed our discussion and I think we both have valid points of view on decor and we can agree to disagree. Heres a few pics of one of my neon goldfish tanks I know I'm not the only bling bling tank owner out there LOL and yes I make my own decorations.

 

[DeeDeeK]

DeeDeeK i have enjoyed our discussion and I think we both have valid points of view on decor and we can agree to disagree. Heres a few pics of one of my neon goldfish tanks I know I'm not the only bling bling tank owner out there LOL and yes I make my own decorations.

Well, gosh, shucks. Sorry I got so snippy in my responses to your criticism. :lipssealedsmilie: My feelings were a little hurt and I tend to overreact when that happens.

Any who, I've been re-thinking my whole attitude towards extreme artificiality. I mean, an aesthetic is not THE aesthetic. I will be doing a major rewrite of that first posting (part of a larger work in progress) and be eliminating my wholesale condemnation of clown puke. I see now that one part of what I wrote is an expression of personal taste, another is an attempt to present suggestions for aesthetic approaches and another is an attempt to articulate a particular philosophy about our relationship with our environment as relates to aquaria. This all must ferment awhile in my brainpan as I continue to learn from people's postings on this thread before I do rewrite but I'll share when I've got anything to show.

OH, by the way, I really like the photos and am impressed with the choices of decor, gravel, and fish. I must admit it's pretty neat and attractive! Honestly!

 

[DeeDeeK]

When reading your article it made me think of nature. Ships sink in the ocean, waves crash against shorelines, rapids create bubbly turbulence in rivers, and any body of water isn't a rectangle. So it doesn't seem far fetched for me to put a fake ship in my tank, to have a bubbler, or to have an oddly shaped tank.

If, as you've said, my article made you think, even if was to disagree and be inspired to retort, it has served a useful function. Anyhow, from your postings elsewhere, I believe you to be a thoughtful, perceptive, and humane person who acts with intent. I'd bet your use of fake ships, bubblers, etc. would fit into a meaningful aesthetic, very personal to your own style. My tastes are irrelevant. I primarily disagree with the clown vomit gravel and decor sold by the likes of Petco to naive first timers to the hobby and children and the vacuum such newcomers find themselves in, aesthetically and technically.

As for tank shape, I suggest shapes and proportions well suited for composition, design, and viewing. Other shapes are fine and if one is concerned about viewing angles and avoiding annoying optical distractions then one must design the layout of the tank with greater care than with rectangular box shapes. It seems a shame for someone to get a tall, hex tank and create a look which the tank can't do justice to or even breaks up the appearance of. And what is the priority, the shape of the container or the enjoyment of its contents?

I appreciate your contributions to aquariacentral, btw.

 

[Fishfriend1]

well, what makes you so sure the fish want a "natural" tank? Their in a glass box for Pete's sake! You can't make a glass box seem "natural" no matter what you do. And most fish are tank raised or bred (at least the ones i get) so they have never even seen a "natural" environment. And as for things like bubblers, noises, and bright colors, well, the wild has plenty of noises, and lots of bubbles. The bright colors may even make the fish a little less bored in their glass box of water. My fish have never acted like they care what the tank looks like, they just want a place to hide, food to eat, and water to swim in. You can't say that they "dislike" neon rocks, pink plants, and large filters. Yea, maybe the noise is potentially annoying to the fish, but until you become a fish in a fish tank, you cannot claim to know that they don't like the "eccentric" tanks. Im not saying that the fish do like the "eccentric" tanks, but you cannot claim they don't.

 

[dundadundun]

I don't think they care whether they live in a fake skull or in a natural rock cave.

or in a sunken 100 yr old train reef off shore in new jersey. sunk in the name of science, habitat re-creation, recycling, etc..

and yes, the idealism in the first post is a very daunting task for a newb in most cases. just being successful with plants in a tank takes most people 2 years alone. the quoted dutch aquascapes and aqua design amano style of decorating are far beyond just learning to grow healthy weeds. if everyone were to be pushed in such a direction right off the bat the percentage of failures and quitters would significantly increase very fast. chances are if we were all pushed there'd be nobody to have this discussion with.

so far we've seen a few examples of how separation of fact and opinion could really help this discussion become an article. we have also (seemingly) seen opinionated walls break down in a fairly short amount of posts/time. we could all (for the most part) agree that a well thought out wabi kusa type design promotes a certain tranquility, how a nice dutch aquascape promotes a certain sense of accomplishment, pride and focal point and how an ada style tank has a certain je ne sais qua (or whatever). very alluring styles and something to shoot for as a weathered aquarist but it seems to me that expecting everyone else to successfully create such allure in any shape box is completely unrealistic in terms of abilities alone.

thankfully we're a community of intelligent, understanding people of highly varying degrees. not everyone has the ability to even understand your writing style. i'll be one to admit it, i have yet to rise to such a level of literacy in terms of so eloquently perforating the fabric and time of intelligent composition when it comes to typing my thoughts. however i live a life surrounded by the masses in which spoken word must be understood by the masses and as such things i do understand well must be relayed forward in such a way that those around me can benefit from. part of being a great author is understanding your target audience. in this realm i would have to assume that one of a few things are going on unless it's proven otherwise to me.

here's what i think could be happening:

• you've been writing to be published so long you've forgot how many people really don't understand you upon the first read.
• you're so educated in the english language you couldn't fathom writing any other way and may have trouble communicating with those of a lesser understanding
• your intended target audience really is only those that can understand you at a glance and respond at a level which you delegate by your original lengthy post in your threads
• you require an intelligent debate about everything... argumentative.

• other... please explain

now, by no means do i intend this to be insulting. when i lay things on the line how i see them i tend to seem to come off that way. if i did so, please accept my apology. at the same time please take a second look at what i've posted in terms of my real intent... to be an eye opener.

i feel that even some of the most complicated things in life can be enriched or improved upon by the outsider, the less experienced, the uneducated in terms of that particular item, thing, thought, etc.. there are perfect examples all around us. it may take a rocket scientist to find the best fuel or way to create such fuel for a rocket out of crude oil. it doesn't take much intelligence however to come to the conclusion that drilling holes deep into the earths core creating an uncontrollable flow of crude oil to harness on a scale adequate to keep every vehicle on earth running perpetually will eventually lead to a catastrophe with the potential to end all life on our delicate planet as we know it. nor does it take a genius to understand the potential ramifications of switching all that potential energy to an alternative that runs off of nuclear power. yet here we are depending on the over-educated, over privileged and over payed to see the obvious. in this case, however they seemingly cannot. it is not an uncommon thing for people to be educated to the point where they overlook the simplistic, obvious, actual answers to their questions. we tend to make things more difficult than they have to be at that point.

basically what i'm saying is that i believe you are missing much of your target audience in many cases due to over complicating things. assuming of course your target audience is the members of this forum that have something to add to your discussion and not just those members that are willing to put themselves out there or those that can write or respond at a level in which they feel comfortable that they could rival your writing abilities. a perfect example that pertains particularly to you would be your thread on lighting. i agree we need to come up with something more suited than wpg. i also believe that there are answers out there if one were so inclined to search them out. there's nothing that's an end all solution but one could certainly ascertain an adequate understanding with the info available if one were to choose to do so. pur, par, spectral graphs, lighting evaluations between different bulb types, makes and models have been done and posted and scattered throughout the web. one perfect example was the testing done by hoppy on single bulbs where he tested them with and without glass and reflectors and at specific distances from the bulbs through air and water in order to put together a comparison graph between the different types of bulbs in terms of their useful light output.

imo you are an excellent writer. i also believe you lack the composure/self control to be an outstanding writer in terms that you are not seeing your target audience when you are writing in this forum. i would suspect possibly elsewhere also.

i do enjoy your threads immensely and they do require me to think. i just don't think that's what everyone is looking for in a discussion at all times. i appreciate neural stimulation and a well written argument or opinion very much. however i don't think confusing too many people is the best way to get all the responses you can learn from. it just seems to me you're sometimes beyond remembering the little things... where it all began. think back to when you started as an aquarist... was all this so obvious? when you think back is what i'm saying now obvious/evident/ringing true? i would think so.

once again, another stimulating conversation. for that i thank you. i am really enjoying this, honestly. please continue to do what you do. if anybody learns something from this (which it seems evident that people [including yourself] have) it is well worth the effort. eye openers are rarely welcomed. i am happy to see that you are one person that does welcome them and for that i applaud you.

have a great day... but be gentle. opcorn:

 

[platytudes]

I think one direction this article could go in is to question why it is that "big box" chain pet stores like Petco, Petsmart, etc. primarily sell this sort of decor.

Since these are chains, I imagine the one in my town is quite similar to most - correct me someone, if I'm wrong. None of the displays have live plants - I understand this makes it difficult to catch the fish and the live plants can't be moved out of the way the way a castle decoration could. Most of the live plants they do sell don't look all that great. At Petco they are in a confusing jumble and at Petsmart they are nicely separated, labeled, priced etc. but most of them don't look all that great. The fried anubias are under the same metal halides that anacharis and hornwort are under, the only two plants which reliably look good.

When I had an LFS available to me in town (there used to be three, two of them closed, now there is only one teensy tiny outfit remaining which deals exclusively with SW, so I don't go there since I can't use anything but the food and filter media) I never saw that they had that super tacky decor, like the clown puke gravel. Walmart, a place where many people go to get their fish supplies, has almost exclusively really tacky stuff - a little bit of natural gravel, and some all green plastic plants, but that's as far as that goes. Everything else is all neon glow in the dark coral, skulls and "no fishing" signs.

Petco and Petsmart have some natural looking driftwood replicas, and I don't really find the "city of Atlantis" theme or shipwreck stuff to be that tacky. But I do visually take offense to the orange plastic plants, shiny marbles, and such.

Fish like to blend into their environment, so I *think* they would rather have realistic colored artificial plants. Orange and neon blue plastic plants are better than nothing, I guess, but green and dark green are probably best. All white gravel (very reflective) or gravel that is neon colored most likely has similar issues, unless you let the algae build up which will subdue the colors a bit.

Here's one issue with the painted decor...well, two issues really.

1. They get dirty. People who buy these sorts of decor want to keep them looking "pretty"...I mean, who would like a decoration like this to get green algae on it? http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ira6OnbLL._SL500_AA280_.jpg
So these are the sort of decorations people will scrub, and we all know scrubbing down aquariums is bad...

2. The paint comes off. Either their "sucker fish/cleaner fish/bottom feeder" rasps it off, or it comes off with the scrubbing, or it just eventually comes off period, it's going to become gray and discolored eventually.

Natural rocks and driftwood actually tend to look good with algae on them. The algae accentuates them. They last a lot longer, and they are often times free Especially the rocks...(btw as a Floridian, I am extremely jealous of you all who can take a casual walk and come across granite, slate etc. since here in Florida all we have is limestone!)

So to sum it up, here are my two points, that I am bringing up here...sorry, I've wandered around all over the place

Number 1: Do we really want this sort of decor? Or is it just pushed on us because this is what we see in the chain stores, so this is what we think aquariums are supposed to look like? In this case, I think there is a point to be made against them - they do not encourage a "seasoned" aquarium. They are shiny and new at first, they get 'dirty' so people clean them up, and while they are at it they go ahead and rinse the lime green gravel because it's starting to get algae on it - boom. Cloudy water, new tank syndrome all over again.

Number 2: I certainly don't mean to offend anyone, but these sorts of decorations are really mostly for the newbies. Like excuzzeme said, people who didn't know anything about aquariums bought them for him, because they thought that's what aquariums were supposed to have in them.

Do the stores that sell this stuff purposefully keep mostly "newbie" items prominently stocked, but don't pay much attention to the live plants, ferts, T5 bulbs, and other "expert" supplies? This is, IMO, why many seasoned fishkeepers mostly buy online.

I know that in my Petsmart, the live plant stuff is still on the bottom shelf. "First Layer" laterite is on the lowest of the low shelf. "Algae fix" is at eye level.

If I were to rewrite your article, D, I would focus on the marketing aspect. We all know how cheaply aquariums can be to run. Buying live plants which propagate themselves (so that eventually, if we do things right, selling our trims and clippings can pay for the monthly maintenance of ferts and CO2) costs a lot less than buying a new burping clam every time the old one starts looking crummy.

Pet stores with fish departments emphasize the "disposable" aspect of aquariums. Betta stuff takes top billing here. I mean, who doesn't know that shiny glass marbles are useless for biological filtration...in a filterless bowl, some porous gravel or ceramic substrate could actually be useful.

Speaking of disposable, I bought a fish at Walmart the other day (yes...it's in QT ) and the attendant let me know that there is a 90 day return policy. No water test required. If the fish dies I can get a new one, one of equal or lesser value, or get my money back.

I'm sure this policy is pleasing to the customers...but what does it encourage? Responsible aquariums, or disposable fish tanks with throwaway fish?

Just some thoughts...I hope this doesn't offend anyone. It certainly isn't my intent. For the record, I still have plastic plants and I am very fond of some artificial decor - particularly the homemade, lovingly crafted pottery at http://www.rosenthalpottery.com/

 

[DeeDeeK]

well, what makes you so sure the fish want a "natural" tank? Their in a glass box for Pete's sake! You can't make a glass box seem "natural" no matter what you do.

Well, I'm not sure fish actually "want" anything. Of course an aquarium necessarily is not truly 'natural,' and I never said they could be. The point of my harangue re. artificial elements and natural was simply that it would be super to create an environment where the fish are healthy and stress free. My personal belief is that fish evolved for certain types of environments - quiet, noisy, full of plants, barren, low or no current or medium or high current, etc., are most at ease in aquaria that reproduce those elements to some degree.

And most fish are tank raised or bred (at least the ones i get) so they have never even seen a "natural" environment. And as for things like bubblers, noises, and bright colors, well, the wild has plenty of noises, and lots of bubbles. The bright colors may even make the fish a little less bored in their glass box of water. My fish have never acted like they care what the tank looks like, they just want a place to hide, food to eat, and water to swim in. You can't say that they "dislike" neon rocks, pink plants, and large filters.

As I've said, certain environmental parameters met for certain fish evolved, whether or not raised within certain environments equals healthier fish. My point is illustrated by the behavior of schooling fish like gold tetras put in a smallish tank - they stop schooling so much and often develop little territories and fight - vs in a larger tank with some plants breaking the line of sight, in which case they'll school peaceably, or Discus fish which like warm, soft, acidy water. Perhaps actual 'natural' elements are not needed to produce the behaviors and health we seek but reproducing the physical traits - chemistry, breaking lines of sight, current, light levels, substrate colors, etc., certainly can benefit the fish. And some fish feel uncomfortable with bright substrates, so we might say the 'dislike' neon rocks after all.

Yea, maybe the noise is potentially annoying to the fish, but until you become a fish in a fish tank, you cannot claim to know that they don't like the "eccentric" tanks. Im not saying that the fish do like the "eccentric" tanks, but you cannot claim they don't.

Never said fish don't like eccentric tanks. Or if I did I don't remember that and no longer agree with that idea at all. I don't like most eccentric tanks and still maintain that without proper care and mindfulness put into aquascaping and stocking such tanks, they will be aesthetically shallow, like mediocre wine in a bottle with a fancy label. Are the fish, etc. to be afterthoughts and the cool shape primary or will the aquarist choose livestock, plants, decoration, et. all which that shape can do justice too? That is all I ask. All I say is the rectangular box is a surer format for aesthetically satisfying aquascaping, design, decor, and display of livestock.

A more careful read of the thread will reveal many interesting points of view by the many posters and will show that I've revised my stance on a few points where my opinion was a bit too subjective and put too strongly - clown puke neon gravel and fake plants, for example. I'd be glad if you reviewed some of this without allowing your reaction to your immediate impressions of the material get in the way of grasping the more basic substance of the writings. At any rate, I read every posting on this thread and think about what I read. Sometimes I want to mount a fierce defense but then realize it's my ego and arrogance moving me to defend when I really should pay attention and learn something from the dissenting posts. When faced with a large group of people with much knowledge, many skills, and the passion to express their opinions and share their knowledge and beliefs in forums like aquariacentral, a humble and open approach is called for, I believe now. This is not to say one should always give way but merely that one should seriously examine and think about the input of others before either accepting or rejecting it. Contempt prior to investigation is the one sure barrier to all knowledge, growth, and experience.

I do wish that I'd posted a somewhat less florid, subjective, and inflammatory piece to open this thread with but apparently I had (and still have) a lot to learn about tact and compassion in my critical writings.

 

[platytudes]

I do wish that I'd posted a somewhat less florid, subjective, and inflammatory piece to open this thread with but apparently I had (and still have) a lot to learn about tact and compassion in my critical writings.

If you feel that way, I would consider PMing a mod and asking them to lock this thread and then you could post a new one with a rewrite.

I would personally avoid any references to dog **** sandwiches or whatever myself, as this tends to stand out for me as needlessly offensive and provocative. But it is your piece, not mine

Since box filters and air driven filtration such as sponge filters are used by many experts, not just for breeding and fry tanks although perhaps most often for those tanks - and UG filtration is the choice of old timers in the hobby, I would personally recommend omitting any, erm, "dissing" of those in your article. These are perfectly serviceable, inexpensive and even eco-friendly (low energy consumption) means of filtration. They may be hard to hide, but not impossible. A piece of slate or driftwood could easily accomplish the task. Ditto with heaters, they stick out a lot - but "stealth" heaters that are all black, maybe not so much - you could put them in a corner, put a tall plant in front of them, and presto.

Airstones are a bit old school but they are necessary for powering box filters - I doubt fish mind the bubbling noise but bubbles themselves are unnatural...they can be beneficial, but compared to a powerhead at the surface they aren't doing much, since what makes them effective is the pushing of water from bottom to top. A powerhead, which ripples the surface, does much more for gaseous exchange.

Anyhow if the purpose of the article is to eschew thoughtless decor and extol the benefits of a "mindful aquarium" as you put it, I wouldn't have anything bad to say about airstones, UG or box filters (or heaters, of course) because they are mindful considerations for the fish, and do ultimately contribute to the health and well being of the fish. Maybe I would mention how these are distracting to the aesthetics of an aquarium and every attempt possible should be made to hide them, with perhaps the "gold standard" being one of those Back to Nature modules where all the hardware of an aquarium is behind them