do fish feel pain

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by CharlyBaltimore


NOW who is the Marxist?

Of course there is only one truth. It would be silliness to say that fish neither feel pain nor don't feel pain.

I am very Marxist. Never said otherwise. Your the only one that seems to consider this an insult.

So I ask again, how do you know there is only one truth if you do not know what the truth is?

Ill present it to you like this

For you, truth is that fish feel pain; for me, truth is that they dont.

 

[carpguy]

In exactly the same way that specialized cells transmit information from the brain allowing us to perceive light, specialized cells transmit information to the brain allowing us to feel: feel soft, feel smooth, feel pain. Saying that "concious awareness" is a precondition for being able to "feel" is not unlike saying that it should be a precondition for "seeing". Can you frame the argument so that the statement "fish cannot see" isn't as necessary a conclusion?

I'd agree that fish can't think "Wow, that was a really beautiful sunset" or "Those were the best brine shrimp I ever had" anymore than they can think "that really hurt" but they do see, taste, feel.

I'd disagree that we are the only animals capable of "concious awareness" but I don't think that fish share that capacity with us.

 

[slipknottin]

See, hear, feel are all relative. Your brain stem and spinal cord can control all these functions without you ever knowing its doing so!

Just as your reflex or your heart will happen regardless of you being aware of them or not.

Want basic evidence of this? Stop breathing... then forget about breating and continue typing. Are you breating now while your typing? Of course. This is showing that you can either be conciously aware or conciously unaware of something, yet it will continue to happen and function regardless.

 

[CharlyBaltimore]

Originally posted by slipknottin

I really wish schools throughout the world taught more logic classes...

There is no possible way fish can both feel pain and not feel any pain at the same time. Impossible, and illogical.

Either you are right, or I am right. We cannot both be right.

 

[carpguy]

That's all well and good…

…but can fish see?

 

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by CharlyBaltimore


There is no possible way fish can both feel pain and not feel any pain at the same time. Impossible, and illogical.

At this time it is entirely possible and logical. Otherwise all of us would have reached the same truth in this debate.

In the future one of us may be proved right or wrong, but until that happens there are multiple truths.

 

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by carpguy
That's all well and good…

…but can fish see?

The question now is wether they are conciously aware that they are seeing, not if they can "see".

 

[carpguy]

I guess my argument from way back when has been that there is a difference between being able to see and being conciously aware of it.

Humans are certainly not the only animals that are able to see (taste, feel, smell, hear, learn, use language, or solve problems deductively).

 

[CharlyBaltimore]

Just because we don't know what the one truth is, doesn't mean there's more than one truth out there.

Either there is a God, or there isn't.
Either dinosaurs were wiped out by a meteor, or they weren't.
Either humans are decimating the planet, or they aren't.
Either the sky is blue on Pluto, or it isn't.

There is but one truth. Just because we can't agree on what the one truth is, doesn't mean there must be more than one truth. That is silly. Otherwise this would make perfect sense:

There is a God, and there is no God.
Dinosaurs were wiped out by a meteor, and dinosaurs were not wiped out by a meteor.
Humans are decimating the planet, and humans are not decimating the planet.
The sky is blue on Pluto, and the sky is not blue on Pluto.

Pure silliness.

 

[slipknottin]

Sure, Ill agree with that.

I think the good argument Dr. Rose made was when he says that when studies were done where they removed the cerebral hemispheres of fish, the fish continued in what was a fully normal state. They seemed just as they did before they removed the cerebral cortex.

In humans however, when that is removed we dont know we exist. Our basic functions are continued by the brain stem and spinal cord, but we have no control, and no understanding of what is happening.


Im not going to generalize as Dr. Rose does about all animals, as I believe there are certain species of ape that can certainly reason and may be well aware of their existance and emotions.