do fish feel pain

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by CharlyBaltimore
Just because we don't know what the one truth is, doesn't mean there's more than one truth out there.


Pure silliness.

Not at all. You are demonstrating marxism right now. You believe their is only one truth, and I believe there are more than one. Any advanced math class will surely show you problems where there are more than one solution, and many problems where you come up with many solutions and only 1 turns out to be correct.

All your examples indicate my point. If you believe one and I believe the other, then as long as it remains unsolved there remain two truths.

 

[CharlyBaltimore]

I am not demonstrating Marxism. I am demonstrating Logic.

There is no way that people who believe in God and athiests can both be right. That is impossible. They are mutually exclusive. Either there is a God or there isn't. The one truth is that there is a God or there isn't. Either the underwear George Bush is wearing now is blue with yellow stripes, or it isn't. There are no two ways about it. You and I could argue all day about whether George W. Bush's underwear is blue with yellow stripes or whether it isn't. Just because you and I don't know which is true, doesn't mean that both our opinions are true.

Two mutually exclusive options cannot both be true. Whether you and I agree have absolutely no impact on what the truth really is. That is just a fact of life. That is Logic.

Anyway, I am going to recognize that you do not know anything about logic, and leave it at that. I am leaving this thread for good. See ya.

 

[slipknottin]

you continue to demonstrate marxism, its quite amazing.

By all definitions, what Im saying is just as logical as any counter argument you make.

opinions are always both true. Thats why they are opinions. If they were fact based then it wouldnt be an opinion now, would it.

 

[carpguy]

I've seen studies that have birds using language and deductive reasoning and wolves using deductive reasoning, learning by observation. Whales and dolphins are known to have unique dialects -- hardwired?

Dr. Rose's observation about what happens to us when you remove a part of our brain that does not happen to fish when you do the same doesn't have any impact on his argument. Its, um, a red herring…

Fish have a nociceptive mechanism. We have a nociceptive mechanism. The mechanisms are different. Ours is certainly more complex and involves portions of our brain that fish just don't have. But as to the question of what fish feel… I don't know and I don't think Dr. Rose does either. They certainly feel something. What does this feel like for them? I don't think we can or will ever be able to say. As far as feeling (tactile, not emotional) it seems to me that there would be more evolutionary utility in being able to feel pain than, for instance, velvety. It would be one of the first types of "feeling" to evolve (deducing here, not observing).

 

[slipknottin]

deductive reasoning does not imply awareness either. That fish dont seem to change much after what would be where awareness comes from would indicate that there is no such awareness that is running their daily lives.

Basically you need to explain that fish awareness comes from a part of the brain other than the cerebral hemispheres. As the Dr. explains, there is no proof of this being a valid idea.

And the argument is still that you dont need to be conciously aware of pain, or so called injurious stimuli to react to it.

 

[carpguy]

As I've said before, I don't think fish are conciously aware. Not even sort of. I do think the basic reaction to recent studies into the minds of other species has been continual surprise at how much is going on in there. I haven't heard of anyone credible making claims for sentience outside of mammals and birds. Fish, no. But deductive reasoning does very much imply awareness. It implies an understanding of time, for instance.

My argument with regards to the fish is this: there is no need to account for awareness of pain in order to account for pain. We know that fish have a well-developed mechanism that should allow them to feel pain. Lack of psychological depth isn't a sufficient reason to discount that out of hand. They don't have emotional states associated with sensation, they don't have memories of sensation, they almost certainly do have sensation. Dr. Rose doesn't account for it.

 

[skeletalmachine]

deductive reasoning does not imply awareness either. That fish dont seem to change much after what would be where awareness comes from would indicate that there is no such awareness that is running their daily lives.

If you read the full paper which I linked to he does use the carefully chosen words "essentially normal" to describe the behaviour of a fish with its cerebral hemispheres destroyed.

Basically you need to explain that fish awareness comes from a part of the brain other than the cerebral hemispheres. As the Dr. explains, there is no proof of this being a valid idea.

Neither does he prove with out a doubt that it is not a valid idea. He quotes a source as saying that "Even great apes, having substantially less nonsensory association neocortex than humans would be unlikely canidates for human-like higher-order consciousness, as thier behavioural characteristics, such as inability to aquire true language use, inidicate." Perhaps his definition of awareness is a little too narrow? Not that I believe fish are self aware.


carpguy, I have seen similiar studies. I saw one in which an octopus was able to learn how to accomplish a task by watching another octopus do it. It was extremely fascinating.

 

[karfixer]

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootise Roll? I believe that fish are capable of sensing injury/unpleasant stimuli, but do NOT suffer "pain" as humans are capable of. The brain of a fish is far too simple to have an emotional response. They are instinctive creatures and the most developed are only capable of limited memory.

 

[Dragon_Lord_Tia]

from my last post im saying the discus was feeling emotional pain silpnottin

now can we have yes or no answers not mumbo jumbo it makes it easier to understand

the facts lead to fish dont feel pain but still its hard not to say they dont

lets rely on our poll thats what i say then its final

6 pages holy crap has that been the biggest thread so far or what

 

[Lila]

Originally posted by RENEGADE
at lest we all agree that fish don't have emotional pain. can you imagine if your fish got depressed becuase you forgot to feed it!!!!

I haven't read this whole thread yet, but reading this quote reminded me of something.

My LFS' competitor has a old folks home that he takes care of. He charged them $2,600 for two 55 gal. tanks with basic set up. Then, he charges them $260 a month to do water changes on them once a month. At the last visit, the worker from the store told the folks that their fish were depressed. And need to see a fish psyc.

They are now talking with my LFS to check out their stuff, and get a quote from him on monthly changes.

And a poll is opinions, it doesn't decide what fact or truth is. I don't believe fish feel pain. But, that is my opinion, I haven't read any articles on it yet. But, I will.