Evolution vs. Creation

[Mako]

Mako, I'll accept your request. I'm not a scripture quoter if that's what you mean. But I firmly understand all the reasoning and stories/ideas/ideology.

So shall I begin?

Based on your faith, do people go to Heaven AND Hell?

What do you need to do to get to Heaven?

Lol, I'm not generally a Scripture quoter either. Ripping a verse out of context is much like ripping a spleen out of a body- it no longer serves what it's supposed to.

Based on Scripture, and not necessarily "my" faith (though I would hope that the two are the same, but I know I'm not perfect), you go one way or the other. There is no purgatory, never was, never will be. There is no "atoning" for sin in hell and then going to heaven. That's why Christ died, so we wouldn't have to.

To go to heaven? Repent, ie, turn from the sin and wickedness, no matter how mundane and *harmless* you think it is. Accept the gift of *forgiveness* God offered through the vicarious sacrifice of Christ-- God in the flesh, suffering for the very things He created. The person who truly does this will stick to God in the long run. Sometimes they turn and run, just like Israel wanted to in the wilderness after the Exodus, and *just* like the prodigal son. And just like the father of that story, God accepts them back unconditionally.

Notice I offer no Scripture verses to back this up, since I'm quite used to people ripping one out of the Old Testament or doing a verse-ectomy on something in the New to try to prove me wrong.

Now, if I may ask a question. Why did Jesus cry "Elohi, Elohi, lamma sabbathani!"--- or--- "My God My God why have you forsaken me?", while dying on the cross?

 

[Watcher74]

I have been taught that God(The Father) had to avert his gaze from his son for a brief time as humanities sin was purged through Jesus' sacrifice.

God, apparently, cannot look at sin.

Seems ridiculous that an allpowerful being can't do something.

How did people get to Heaven before Jesus came?

 

[Watcher74]

BTW: I agree with your answers based on what I was taught.

 

[Watcher74]

*sigh* Mako, this is going to take forever at this rate.

Is there another way that we can do this to speed it up?

 

[Slappy*McFish]

How about exchanging phone #s.

 

[Watcher74]

Heh. Everybody's a comedian. :Angel:

 

[Watcher74]

From Matak

There is no empirical evidence, save for our experience (which you cannot accept), because it didn't happen to you. We cannot accept your theory of the same evidence because we have this personal experience that tells us beyond the shadow of a doubt that not only does God exist, but He is all He says He is.

I'm the monkey wrench in the gears for you, Matak.

I firmly believed in God for the first half of my life.

More real to me than my own cousins that I saw a few times a year.

My grandfather was a deacon. My mother has played the piano during every service at the church I grew up in since the 1970's.

I accepted Jesus when I was 5. But my mother thought I was too young. Waited until I was 7. Relented because I was confused and terrified that the Second Coming would happen and I would go to Hell because I thought at the time I had to be baptised to go to Heaven(Baptism is only symbolic in the faith I was raised in.),

I've kneeled a thousand times, head bowed, praying for help, for instruction, to know what to do. I've studied the Bible, and argued your side a thousand times.

I've led 14 people to the faith from my own actions and guidence.

And I do not feel God. I do not believe in God. Jesus was enlightened, I have no doubt. But he was not the Son of God. According to my faith once saved, always saved. The impossibility of Apostacy. So I can't go to Hell, since I truly accepted Jesus as my personal savior so long ago. According to my mother, I am now God's, and He will only let me stray so far,then he will yank me back. I do not hate God. No more than I hate Santa Clause. It's a figment. The best way that humanity could both explain how we came to be, as well as a coping mechanism for all the hardships we deal with in life, including our inevitable termination.

And oddly enough, religion has proven to me to be a nest for hatred, bigotry, and alienation of other people( none of those terribly things have been directed at me) All the things that Jesus preached for us to not be like.

It's not true. It's obsolete. And it causes far more harm than good.

It will dissapear. But the death throws will be terrible. And last many, many centuries.

 

[nursie]

And oddly enough, religion has proven to me to be a nest for hatred, bigotry, and alienation of other people( none of those terribly things have been directed at me) All the things that Jesus preached for us to not be like..

Watcher..was it religion and God..or was it the church? I've seen some pretty wild things in what outwardly appear to be "good" churches. I haven't been to church in ages. You can't beat them for the above said hatred, bigotry and alienation of others. I think some of the people in them are in for a rude awakening. Not every church or every one that wants you to think they are a Christian is. They may be fooling themselves also.

 

[mindtonic]

Matak.........

Sorry if I came across harshly towards religion. I was raised Catholic, my father is a Eucharistic Minister, a Promise Keeper, and a member of the "Folk Group." My mother and father-in-law are both Catholic School principles, and my father-in-law used to be a dean at a seminary, so I am well aquainted with much of your argument. Just because I now consider myself an agnostic does not mean that I am hostile towards religion as a whole. I understand that your argument makes perfect sense because of your foundation of faith, but that still does not make it hold it's weight in a scientific debate.

The argument is circular because the the argument is based on thye belief in the infallibility of the scriptures. While this may hold weight with you and be your truth, it cannot be debated on equal footing with evolution. While it's true that we cannot study or test either theory in a laboratory, we can at least gather and scrutinize data and make educated guesses as to the probability of evolution. We cannot do that with creationism.

Science builds upon "truths" that have been tested over time and seem to be able to hold their own weight. Creationism looks to the bible and it's presumed divine orgins for validation, so from an a-religious point of view, it's justification is circular.

It's really amazing that any of us try to debate the two, considering the methodology of both camps...........it's like trying to speak latin with someone who only speaks tagalog.

Again, my intention was never to offend. Each of us finds our own peace in our own way, so..................

peace be with all of you.

 

[Watcher74]

Watcher..was it religion and God..or was it the church?

*sigh* Well, we can turn that into an entire new debate right there.

And I know the stance believers will take. "Don't blame God for the actions that humans take using his name." Crap, I've shouted those words a thousand times.

But, the actions of humans are not the reason why I no longer believe. Believe me, I would never allow the inequities of mortal humans determine my beliefs.

When I was in community college I was on the school paper. A girl and I had an argument about abortion. She used that argument to make an artical for the next edition. Spouting out that God made ***s, she was a christian too, but believed in her right to kill an unborn child, etc.

I responded. So did 4 other people.

My article was the only one that was not spouting "By the word of God, all ***s must die!" and the like. I was shocked. I was the only individual that was not using the words of God to make it a holy war against abortion and personal lifestyles.

No matter how much the New Testament preaches love and forgiveness, humans will use those words to justify their hatred, bigotry, and right to destroy others.

We're stupid.