Freshwater Deep Sand Bed (DSB)

I would place a penny at each corner of the top of the tank so the glass rests on the pennies rather than the frame-or maybe a non-copper coin or thin, flat object would be better - and maybe glue it to the frame with an easy to break glue. Lifting the glass by only a penny's thickness will allow more than enough oxygen in and carbon dioxide out.

Yeah, forget the penny. Copper bad! Just find something thin and flat.

I believe that the openings in the glass which you mentioned, however, are already quite enough to allow fresh oxygen in in adequate amounts. Maybe not, though, so try keeping the cover slightly open whether with shims or some other manner. It will just need a very slight opening to make a difference assuming it really is too airtight as it is now. I imagine that if the glass is the cause of the problem and the problem is O2 shortage, you'll be able to remove the bubbler once there's a gap to let more air in.

The O2 shortage idea still isn't very compelling to me - it's just too easy to oxygenate water and takes quite a bit of O2 consumption to outstrip it's rate of renewal. I'd still bet money that it's CO2 that's the problem.
 
OK, I turned my filter current up as high as it goes, and I am trying it without bubbles again today.

The temperature is 75 in the tank, Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate under 10, PH 7.5, high hardness, medium alkalinity (it seems to me alkalinity should be more than just medium if hardness is so high, but I don't really know).

The little fool who tried to escape is still hiding for the most part, he might have a touch of columnaris on his mouth, crud. I'll do a water change this evening to help him out.
 
Anoxia said:
I've heard splashing before when I turned the light off, but this is the first time one of them made it all the way out. I'm not really sure how keep my flying fish contained, while letting more air reach the surface of the water. My sister suggested a mesh lid, but it seems like that would rust. Ideas?
Click to expand...

Hi Anoxia
Very cool thread. I have DSB tanks at home and they are great. Try the never failing plastic mesh canvas.

http://www.darice.com/ecom/ProductDetails.aspx?it=33400&oid=12844#
 
OOOooohhh, what do you do, just rip the metal mesh off of a terrarium lid, and glue the plastic mesh in it's place? I think there's a hot glue gun around here somewhere.

I see you have assassin snails, are they actually effective snail control? I have a plethora of loathsome pond snails that I'd like to annihilate if possible.
 
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Anoxia said:
OK, I turned my filter current up as high as it goes, and I am trying it without bubbles again today.

The temperature is 75 in the tank, Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate under 10, PH 7.5, high hardness, medium alkalinity (it seems to me alkalinity should be more than just medium if hardness is so high, but I don't really know).

The little fool who tried to escape is still hiding for the most part, he might have a touch of columnaris on his mouth, crud. I'll do a water change this evening to help him out.
Click to expand...

If your fish gasp and you really have a nice, high turnover of water at the surface, then the problem is CO2. If they stop gasping when you crank up water turnover at the surface, most likely the problem will have been O2 (but of course is no longer). Of course, if one of the fish is smoking cigarettes, that could be the problem, too, in which case I recommend a window-fan for the aquarium.

If hardness is high, it may be that just GH is high and not KH. KH is bicarbonate ions and may or may not be chemically associated with calcium or magnesium, which are measured as GH. For example you might have lots of calcium sulfate and few carbonates, possibly sodium bicarbonate for lower alkalinity and higher overall hardness. Or you might have very little calcium or magnesium but lots of sodium bicarbonate for a low GH but high KH, again for high overall hardness.

http://stason.org/TULARC/indulgence/water-for-coffee/1-1-Water-hardness-defined.html

Description

This article is from the Water for coffee FAQ, by Jim Schulman with numerous contributions by others.

1.1 Water hardness defined

Hardness is the term for the calcium or magnesium carbonate
dissolved in water as Ca++, Mg++, and HCO3- (bicarbonate) ions. There
are two measures of water hardness, hardness and alkalinity. Hardness
measures the amount of positive calcium and magnesium ions; alkalinity
the negative bicarbonate ions. Both measures are usually given in
calcium carbonate, i.e. scale, equivalent units (abbreviated as
CaCO3). This means when one unit of scale precipitates out of the
water, hardness and alkalinity measured in CaCO3 units go down by one
unit each.
Alkalinity and hardness levels need not be the same, since the
bicarbonates can be associated with potassium or sodium, and the
calcium or magnesium with chlorides or sulphates. Usually, alkalinity
is less than hardness, although some mineral waters and ion exchange
softened waters rich in sodium or potassium may have higher levels of
alkalinity.
Sometimes alkalinity is called "temporary" or "carbonate"
hardness, the difference between hardness and alkalinity, "permanent
hardness", and the hardness itself, "total" or "general" hardness.
This usage is common among aquarium owners, but does not accurately
convey how scaling works.
There are no health hazards associated with water hardness, so
it is not subject to regulation. However, hard water causes scale, as
well as the scumming and reduced lathering of soaps. Very soft waters,
exposed to air or heat, become acidic and corrosive, and can harshen
the taste of vegetables, tea, or coffee. So, several countries
including the US, UK, Canada, and Germany have issued non-binding
recommended hardness ranges. These are usually aroung 80 to 100mg/l
hardness and 50 to 60 mg/l alkalinity, figures calculated to minimize
the combined cost of scaling and corrosion in municipal piping and
domestic hotwater systems. The levels required for taste, or for low
maintenance steam boiler, spa, or aquarium operation, can be quite
different.
Water boards call waters in the recommended range "neutral,"
those below the recommended range are called "moderately soft," below
half the range, "very soft," above the range "moderately hard", and
above twice the range "very hard." However, the exact ranges referred
to by these names varies, and one should always get the exact water
analysis.


Oh, I hope your little fool really isn't sick! Where did he think he was going?!? You know, I've moved across the country before with that little thought. Crud on his mouth? Are you sure he's not the one smoking? Maybe he was running out to buy a pack of Pall Malls!
 
I've got bits of seashell in the gravel, so that explains the calcium hardness. I think the Walstad method uses calcium, so its probably not that bad. The cories may not care for the hardness, but I haven't heard any complaints from them about it yet.

How long has it been since I said I turned the bubbles off? Five or six hours? I'm just now starting to see the effects of too much CO2 in the aquarium. The platies and rainbows aren't gasping at the top, but they are respirating fast, and the cories seem more hyper than usual. Tigger, the female betta, is going frequently up to the surface for gulps of air. The blackworms are sticking way out of the sand, taller than usual. Even the pond snails are climbing up the sides of the tank. So you were right, DeeDeeK, it certainly is CO2 excess. Is the air pump my only hope, or is there anything else I can do?

I noticed something else about the substrate today. Not only does the clay/topsoil mud layer resist turning black, it also doesn't develop gas bubbles. It has plenty of bubbles above it, and plenty of bubbles below it, but no bubbles visible in the mud itself. Just another observation, I don't know why it happens, or whether it's good or bad.

Off I goes to turn the air pump back on. Poo.
 
The Betta gulping for air is normal as they have evolved to need to supplement the oxygen they get from their gills with atmospheric air.
 
this is the best series I have read here in ages. /thunderous applause & apologies for interjecting. :)
 
What an excellent thread, found it my accident researching fresh water filtration, so had to join the forum.

I'm looking at doing a FWDSB, but will be using a sump setup in lieu of the actual tank. Not sure yet if I'll go for a dark installation similar to marine DSB's of a lit version - may start off with it dark and see how that goes, can always add lights after
 
Bettas do gulp air normally but Anoxia's betta's gulping more frequently is a clear sign there's too much CO2 or too little O2 (since we know she monitors ammonia, that couldn't be the problem).. It's strange but apparently you can drown these fish by denying them access to the air.

Anoxia, if you can position your filter or its outlet such that it really churns the surface or even better, splashes, it should drive CO2 out as well as bubbling. Funny thing about the blackworms stretching their little tails out...I wonder if they loose their CO2 out their tails more than out their heads. I mean, if they can release CO2 any old place along their lengths, then why stretch out in the presence of excess CO2? My first guess is their tail ends must respire more than their head ends - maybe a difference in their skin? Perhaps the head, since it sticks into anaerobic territory, must hold dissolved gasses in (and hence out) to preserve it's supply of O2 and avoid nasty anaerobically generated gases. But another part of me keeps nagging that this stretching behavior would be explained simply if the worms needed to maximize surface area exposed to the water column to absorb O2, since the concentration may be shrinking.

I still think it's CO2, not O2, but this blackworm thing has me re-thinking and keeping an open mind to further evidence. Seems like it's back to cracking the books in search of california blackworm knowledge for me! I may have something to add to the blackworms column!
 
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