Mafia #67 - 50/50 -- The Play

[jbradt]

For dramatic effect...

If I vote for you Pappy, this will be the post that made the decision.

 

[Lab_Rat]

Its possible but I'll keep my vote on you for now. I will at least keep an open mind. As you can see I'm not just questioning you.

That is fair. I'm voting for who I think is scummiest, I hope you vote for who you think is scummiest too.

I can't believe this has to be pointed out again. :wall: Remember the context, FF is talking to LR. He said IF YOU think I'm scum then invest me. The YOU being LR. Not the scum team.



Since you know how he is soooo well, care to enlighten us as to why he ignored the question I asked him about liking the train on FF?

I like the big bolded colored words, makes it easy for my tiny brain to read.

When I read what FF said, I did not think he was directing that statement at me, I thought he was directing it at the collective "you" that is the town. I can't see why you're so hung up on this anyway, how does it matter if he was addressing me directly or addressing the collective you of the town?

Well Wiz, while I know him quite well, I am not a mind reader. I know him well enough that what many of you are pointing out as scum tells are not scum tells. Now if he were posting fluffy junk, I'd be the first to call him on it. I have no problem with lynching him if he's scum, but I'm not seeing the scum part.

 

[the wizard]

Wiz, if that is the case (the "you" being lab) then why did he later say it wasn't just to lab?

post #238 if you need to read what you obviously missed.

I had already stated in day 1 that he did get scummy and contradict himself. After LR had him under the gun which is exactly what she expected.

for dramatic effect.

If YOU missed it let me know and I will be glad to pull that post and repost it in day 2 for those who refused to see anything but pro town behavior from LR.

 

[rich311k]

I think the SB is whatever the person who is the martyr makes it. He/she could go either way or both ways. Entirely depends on who it is.

 

[Dangerdoll]

wow... what did everybody get invited to a Tabasco party amd not tell me about it? Why is everyone so darned cranky tonight?

 

[rich311k]

Probably the never ending rainstorm.

 

[jpappy789]

How so JB?

Wiz, so now you're going to not go on FF's word and assume he posted lies when innocent? He clearly wanted anyone mafia to investigate him. If you believe that he did this for the stated reason of knowing who was mafia based on votes then it's obvious he wasn't posting that to Lab, since that's what he said.

You cannot believe one thing FF said but then turn around and pick and choose what he said was his true intentions on the basis on implicating someone else.

 

[Lab_Rat]

You didn't read too much into anything with FF. Are you trying to sugarcoat your day1 behavior? You twisted his posts and steamrolled right on over him.

I am doing nothing of the sort. Since you missed it, I already said I saw something scummy, probed further, got what I took to be a scummy response and kept on. How else do you expect to find scum? Do you want me to go around asking everyone if they're scum, they say no, I say ok, I believe you, and then go on to the next person? I mean, that seems like it would be sooo productive. Lots of info to get with that method.

How am I sugar coating my behavior? Admitting I was wrong and was too aggressive is sugar coating? Makes no sense.

wow... what did everybody get invited to a Tabasco party amd not tell me about it? Why is everyone so darned cranky tonight?

Idk, someone peed in someone elses Wheaties this morning I think...

 

[Kashta]

I pulled this portion from my previous post to illustrate this point about Jpappy.

Jpappy - Doesn't seem to be as objective this game as he normally is. Given that that was mostly focused on FF and his erratic posting, all I can do is reserve judgement about Pappy for another day or so.... wait to see how he plays now that FF is gone and we're discussing other subjects that come along. I figure if I compare what he does, says, and how he approaches the game now... plus my impression about him being far too committed in voting FF out, this should give me a better feel which way Pappy is leaning this time.

The following exchange is a perfect example of what I was getting at.

Step 1 -- Ask someone a simple and direct question.

Kash: to what extent did you agree with JB's assertion that we should have kept FF around even if he was mafia?

Step 2 -- Wait for the response, then... totally disregard whatever that person has to say.

Frankly, because I agreed with how I interpreted the remarks JB posted at the time they were made. Even if FF had turned out to be mafia, he's still a small fish in a big pond.

What we lost as our opportunity to root out scummy players who are MUCH more dangerous to the town than FF could even hope to be at this point has hurt us more now (even if he wasn't innocent) than had we'd simply tagged FF as a possible suspect at that time, kept tabs on how other people in the game relate to him in the thread and as votes were placed, and gone ahead to look for more serious threats against us.

I believe it was these posts from JB which started the controversy (and I use that term loosely). See text highlighted in blue. I also trimmed these quotes so click the little arrow to see the full text.



In that first part, JB essentially says what I just said. FF wasn't worth going after as our highest priority to the exclusion of everything else when it's also evident that other people on mafia team put the town at much greater risk. He also points out that this effort was terribly premature. I agreed with that statement, as well.

In the second portion highlighted, JB made what I considered was another good point. We already know from recent game experience that FF's game play is inconsistent, contradictory, and he posts sometimes in something of a frenzied state without stopping first to think over what he says. For that reason, it's highly probably that his association on the mafia side would have proved to be more of a liability to his own teammates than to the opposing side. He's quite capable of self-destructing on his own and could easily take out or expose a teammate when he goes down. That's one of the reasons why I mentioned earlier that I'd be tempted to kill him off myself if we were both mafia together.

Here's another quote I found from JB about this.



Again, JB repeats the same sentiments: (1) FF wasn't our most serious threat that early on Day 1, and (2) going after him the way it was done and at that time was premature. I fully agree with that. FF was not our highest priority.

I also noted with some interest that other players took essentially the same point of view...




This post from JL was well stated.



As was this post from Ice.

Ice has also provided us with another reason why it might have been prudent for us to overlook FF the very first day.



For that matter, Pappy, I can give you another reason why I believe these views have merit. In that game we played where there were 3 mafia teams, I was communicating innocent (vigilante) with Annie. We investigated you and confirmed you were New York mafia. We could have hit you that night.... we didn't. Why? Because it we believed we might learn more about the roles of other players by keeping you (known scum) alive for one more day. Knowing someone's role for certain or having a reasonable belief someone is scummy can be an advantage in some cases because it allows you to sit back and observe how other players relate to that person in the thread... BEFORE they learn that you're on to them.

Step 3 -- Use the reply post as a chance to restate your original point(s) again that's already been said over and over... in the hope that simple repetition will prevail once you've already seen you didn't convince people to your line of thinking.

Kashta:

1) A dead mafia is a good mafia. In this game if the CM team can recruit successfully the two chances they get then they have a considerably bigger advantage than limiting their possibilities and keeping more mafia in the dark. I do understand that the CI's have the same opportunity but why leave it to them to even up the chances? We should be taking out mafia every chance we get. Leaving scum-FF around only lets the CM team get the opportunity to recruit him since if the town is at the point where we decide to let FF stay around even if he is mafia I think you can assume the CM team have caught onto the fact that he's most likely a teammate.

2) It has already been discussed numerous times that FF was most likely without a team. JB admitted this flaw in his logic. I will emphasize that it was a HUGE flaw since it know longer left us with any reason to leave FF around. Without a team there is nothing to slip up so we are no longer left with a "keep FF around to help us" argument but "keep FF around because I don't know if he is scum or not." That's individual interpretation and no longer a benefit to the town collectively when it's obvious that not everyone who voted for FF was scum.

3) Even if FF was on a team or was recruited before we decided to lynch him all he is is a distraction. What can we consider to be a slip up? The team could feed him lies between truth and we wouldn't know what to believe. We've already seen that a team can effectively keep him under their control.

The whole point is that by the time JB even suggested it, FF and any potential mafia out there were well aware that a good portion of the town was already on to him. So your comparison has little merit.

Pappy, you asked me that question -- I thought -- because you really wanted to know my thoughts and reasoning on this. I see now that's obviously not the case. This was nothing but a way of suckering me to give you an opportunity to rehash the same opinions you've stated before... and to (again) redirect the town's focus where you want it to go.

That is not being objective.

I don't believe these tactics are in the best interests of the town.

Pappy...... if you really don't want my answer and you're not open to discussion on the subject or willing to consider differing views, why ask the question?

 

[Madcrawdad]

My reason for voting Lab yesterday and today are the same. She took a part of a sentence and bolded it to draw the eye to the negative part of the sentence and take it out of context. Then used this to build her case.

I said scummy until I went back and saw the bolded part of the post by Lab.

Yeah, right. Maybe this will jar your memory. Pretty sure you were still saying that FF was scummy. Note that you say it's possible that Lab is ALSO mafia (meaning along with FF)... You were still explicitly calling FF mafia there, dude.

The whole crux of your argument was that Lab was only trying to look good by going after someone who looked scummy.

I retract my vote on FF and vote to lynch Lab


I have a problem with the way Lab took something FF wrote and only bolded a part of it. It takes away from the concept of the post. Most of her case is pretty much based on the fact of him asking the mafia team to invest him and from there its just snowballed.

Lab why did you only bold the part where he asks the mafia to invest him but leave out his reasoning right after it? It seems to me that was the more important part of the post. By doing that you altered the meaning and make the eyes focus on the negative part instead of the entire sentence.

Still not saying FF is innocent mind you just hate to see a 1 horse race. Its possible Lab is also a non comm mafia doing her best to look innocent and if they both are mafia its a no lose situation.

What are your thoughts on Lab. I thought you to be a better player then to get railroaded so easily into a bad vote. How did you overlook such a thing?

Yeah. I guess when it comes to either following decent logic or WIFOM, I'll usually go for the logic instead of chasing after the invisible butterflies.

This game is a 50/50...two similar teams. It's not really about scum-hunting, it's about finding players aligned the same as you, and trying to work as a block...

FF asked to be investigated by scum. As an innocent player, this request makes NO sense for FF to have done, as if scum were to take him up on it they would have killed him. Therefore (not knowing FF's actual alignment) the best explanation was that he was telegraphing his alignment to his scumbag teammates.... Even you agreed, although you're singing a different tune today.

Looking back at those that did vote FF I'm more inclined to think that any mafia who did place their vote there in hiding would be those who made less of a splash throughout the day, namely Annie and Rich.

Not saying anything about your suspects, but I don't see why mafia players would need to hide this game...it's a 50/50. IMO players would be more interested in making their alignment known versus trying to blend in.

it wouldn't have been. thanks for pointing out the flaw in my logic (that i've already admitted to several times) yet again.

Dude, it's not just a flaw...it's a hole you could drive a truck through. IMO it's NEVER a good idea to keep known mafia around, even if they're communicating....it's a numbers game. Why go for an uncertainty when you can take out a sure-thing?

I agree Tank is a clueless noob. Innocent I hope, because I don't see anyone rattling his cage at this point without looking like an opportunistic scumbag. If he's scum, he's quite likely gonna skate through this game relatively unharmed.

I'll be your huckleberry...see below.

Overall... I think most folks are being careful in this game. Probably due in large part to the 50/50 format and, again, because most of Day 1 was spent going back and forth over FF or Lab Rat's case against FF.

I disagree. Judging by a lot of the crap-logic being tossed around, I think that folks are being less careful... easier for scum to synch up their votes if they ignore logic and spew nonsense.

What are your thoughts on Mad then Annie? He hasn't really kicked many bushes and the questions he asked have been mostly to Tank,plus he voted FF.

Not kicked bushes? I've pointed out and disputed a lot of your crap-logic. And what bushes would you like kicked?

Let me explain something to you about mafia. The whole mafia game dynamic revolves around a small group of people (scum) who are "in the know" against the blind majority (townies). As you know, the object of the game for scum is to blend in and not get caught. In their attempt to blend in and appear to be one of the blind, scum may drop "tells" which can give give away their true identity....therefore it is in the town's best interest to kick bushes, as you say.

THIS is a 50/50 game with 2 EQUAL teams....its not really a mafia game. Scum and Town are labels ONLY.... Both teams are the same. There should be no scum-tells...people are trying to align with their team There is not really a need to kick too many bushes, as it's pretty easy to see who is scum based on a lot of the decent logic being ignored.

This is a continuation of my morning post which I'll quote so its all together.

Mad- Not kicking bushes and when he has its been mostly directed at Tank. I was very surprised that Mad interpreted the post the way he did.

Tank no clue really.Could be distancing with the questions from Mad that are softballs. Or Mad knows if he went hard after him we'd be on him like we are Lab.

Right. "We'd" be on him... are you speaking for the whole town now, Ice? Almost like a "Darn, Innocent Again" post...

I hardly think the questions to Tank were softballs. As he came out acting pretty confused, I'm trying to figure out if he's legitimately confused, or if it's an act... The confused newb act has been used a bit in the past. See questions below...

because only after i joined the gaim did i go and read other games

Well the reason that I asked, Tank, as I explained to Ice above is that some new players like to come in and act really confused, and as Annie points out above, go through the game untouched. I'm trying to determine if your confusion is real or being 'put on'.

The fact that you used 'being good at poker' as a reason for getting into a mafia game kind of says to me that you did have at least somewhat of a handle on the game. Poker is a decent analogy for the game of mafia, so I'm trying to figure out why you came in acting like you didn't know what the game was about.

As you pointed out in your first or second post, you're new to AC and new to mafia. One of the things I noticed about you is that you're in invisible mode...I can tell because your 'Last Activity:' doesn't show up under your avatar. A lot of seasoned players are invisible, but you're new to the game and apparently a little unsure about how to play... what made you decide to go invisible?

---------

Based on the thoughts I've posted above, those players trying to go hard after those who voted FF are most likely scum-aligned. As a non-com, only FF knew his role...scum couldn't have known. IMO scum were more likely to want FF saved versus lynched.

Ice - Apparently found FF scummy but then went after Labby for possibly bussing her scumbuddy. Today he waffled and says differently, but the post is up there. He thought FF was scum yesterday, but now claims he didn't today.

Wiz - A little dramatic with the posting. "If history teaches us anything.." Looks to be trying to find scum a little too hard, and ignoring logic in doing so. FF was non-com AND looked to be scum-aligned...why would scum push hard for his lynch.

Jbradt - It's never a good idea to keep mafia around, period.

I vote to lynch Ice

He explicitly called FF mafia yesterday along with Lab, and now he's apparently forgotten that he also found FF scummy. He's now going strongly after those who also found FF scummy yesterday.