Stability???

Hello Everyone:

DrTim here. Yes, THAT DrTim. I thought I would jump in here to try and answer the question of how bacteria can 'live' in a bottle for 6 months to a year. I have written an article on my blog that covers this which you can access here http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/Blog_twitter/files/51b49660af3d5e3f63eceae8c27a461b-4.html

Basically - bacteria are not human. They don't have to eat everyday to survive. Note I said survive. We are not talking about growing just surviving. You can think of the bacteria as a rechargeable battery. The bacteria don't get any better in the bottle so they have to be in top condition when they are put into the bottle (also you have to start with the right bacteria but that's another story). For nitrifiers, this means their ribosomes (the energy factory) have to be fully charged when you bottle them. After that you do not want to freeze them or get them too hot. There is no evidence that any magic solution extends their shelf-life and we don't put anything other than water and nitrifiers in One and Only. Once in the bottle since there is no food (ammonia) they do not have to expend much energy but they are using up the energy they have slowly. This is why after a time they are not as 'good' as when they were bottled but that does not mean they are dead. To kill a bacterium you have to break its cell wall or poison it. So even after their energy is gone they are still intact and can respond to a better environment condition (ammonia will get them going again) but they are slow because they energy center is weak. Think about it - if the above wasn't true how would nitrifiers have ever survived? Ammonia/nitrite is not always around. Bacteria, even non-spore formers like nitrifiers, have evolved ways to survive in poor conditions that's why they have been able to survive for millions of years.

Hope this helps.
 
Cool.... DocTim is now a member of Aquaria Central!!!

And NO! I didn't contact him! I imagine he must use a Google Alert to let him know when folks are talking about him or his company/products so he can pop up from time to time. Usually he shows up most often when us hobbyists are having a nice debate about bacteria in a bottle.

Welcome to the forum DocTim (or Dr. Tim)!
 
Nice to meet you DrTim. I think Stability and your product are both useful.

Some eople have a hard time understanding bacteria can be aerobic(oxygen reliant)/anaerobic(do not require oxygen).

It's kind of like bottling the microorganisms that are used to brew beer, it starts as yeast. Their is only so much food that can be stored with them in the bottle. Fresh product will be more potent and much more effective.
 
It has nothing to do with being aerobic vs. anaerobic. The nitrifiers we want in our aquariums need DO2 to metabolize aka they are aerobic organisms. They just are not required to constantly "feed." Even anaerobic organisms have another way to produce energy without O2, which is NOT what the nitrifying bacteria do...they go into a state of basically nonexistence as Dr. Hovanec states...“viable but nonculturable”.
 
The fact that none of these products are guaranteed to work is enough proof for me.

Dr. Tim guarantees his product as far as I know! He even sends a vial of ammonia so you can dose your tank after adding the bacteria and if it doesn't cycle the ammonia, contact him and he'll send you a replacement. I've seen him do this several times over the years.

On his Terms & Conditions page, he does offer a 30 day refund.
http://store.drtimsaquatics.com/Terms-and-Conditions_ep_2-1.html

I guess it's hard to *guarantee* something live will stay alive when other retailers are involved in the shipping, handling and distribution but he does back his products by offering the refund or replacement. I think the term *guarantee* might carry some kind of legal liability such as a fish keeper buys his $20.00 product and sets up a $2,000.00 SW tank and uses Dr. Tim's One And Only to cycle the tank and then adds $1,000.00 worth of rare fish and the One And Only product had been damaged in shipping due to exposure to excessive heat or cold and then the fish all die and the hobbyist wants Dr. Tim to pay for replacing all the fish. I don't think any company can offer that kind of guarantee on a live product. Just like the live pet breeder can't guarantee his *product* once the local pet store gets hold of them and may or may not take care of them properly.

Maybe Dr. Tim will jump back in and clarify this if I'm wrong.

Here's the FAQ page for Dr. Tim's One And Only...
http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/Helpful_hints/OneandOnlyFAQs/OneandOnlyFAQs.html

And here's what his product description says... It says INSTANTLY CYCLES.. not in a few days or a week or so... but INSTANTLY. If it doesn't, then it sure seems like the refund policy would kick in! Emphasis in red is mine.

ONE AND ONLY LIVE NITRIFYING BACTERIA


• Treats 30 gallons (114 liters)
• Eliminates new tank syndrome
• Instantly creates a biofilter
• Removes toxic ammonia and nitrite, naturally

Good for 6 months at room temperature, 1 year at 50°F (10°C).
Best to keep refrigerated for longest shelf life.

One and Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria prevents new tank syndrome by instantly working to establish a biofilter in newly set-up aquaria. Use One and Only to control ammonia and nitrite levels.

One and Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria has no sulfur or other offensive odors.

Directions for Use:
SHAKE WELL BEFORE USING
BEST TO USE THE ENTIRE CONTENTS AT ONE TIME
Minimum dose 10 ml per 10 gallons of aquarium water.
Cannot be overdosed.

DO NOT FREEZE
Use when setting up a new aquarium, after water changes and disease treatments to quickly establish a natural biological filter.




 
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A lawyer could rip the"instantly" apart..though I would vouch for DrTim's product before any other. Though I see no need to purchase stuff when it can be done for 50 cents of ammonia.

Too much instant satisfaction desired and no patience in this hobby as of late.
 
Hey All:

I will try to clear a few things up.

First,
they go into a state of basically nonexistence as Dr. Hovanec states...“viable but nonculturable”.
. Just to nitpick a little but I want to make sure it's correct. The bacteria are not in 'nonexistence' - they are still there but they are not using much energy. The idea to kind of force them into 'hibernation' after they have been fattened them up and then they can survive on their reserves for a long time.

Next, the term
viable but noncultureable
(VBN) does not apply here. VBN means we know the bacteria are there but we can't grow them. This does not pertain to nitrifiers in a bottle - we know they are there and we grew them. VBN pertains to the fact that we know that there are literally tens of thousand of bacteria per ml of ocean or lake water but we can only grow 1 to 3% of them. They're viable because we can stain their DNA and there is a simple live-dead stain to tell if they are alive but we can't grow them because we don't know how to yet.

As for my products and a guarantee - if someone calls and has a problem we are going to fix it to the best of our ability. There have to be reasonableness on both sides but I try to put myself in the place on the caller and determine want is reasonable. The hardest thing is that people won't tell you the full story at first. One guy called and said the product failed. Only after repeated questioning did he final say "oh yeah my fish were looking bad so I added some antibiotics to the tank, is that a problem?". So he killed the one and only with the antibiotics but he was a novice and really didn't understand what was going on so we sent him next day more bacteria for free.

We're here to help and keep customers. Treat us with respect (no cussing etc) and we'll bend over backwards to get it straight all without lawyers.
 
A lawyer could rip the"instantly" apart..though I would vouch for DrTim's product before any other. Though I see no need to purchase stuff when it can be done for 50 cents of ammonia.

Too much instant satisfaction desired and no patience in this hobby as of late.

I agree that it would be better for folks to fishless cycle so they can take those 4-6 weeks to learn the nitrogen cycle, basic water chemistry and learn about their own tap water. Then work on a fish stocking plan of fish that are compatible with their water, the other fish, the tank size, etc.

BUT... that said, there are LOTS of newbies who come home with an aquarium and fish the same day and don't have a clue of what's going on. If it's the kids fish, the parents might want to spend the $12.00 to $20.00 for a bottle of Dr. Tim's One And Only so they can *instantly* cycle their tank before the ammonia/nitrite levels get out of control and start harming the fish or driving the parents batty doing PWC's and testing the water.

If you factor in your own time, the $12.00 to $20.00 for the product for a small to medium sized tank is a small price to pay considering the time you will spend fishless cycling a tank.
 
ahhh..nothing like buying your way to self gratification.....
 
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