steelerfan's 30 Gallon Breeder Journal/Build

[steelerfan67]

hi greech,

glass has a slight film on it but what you are seeing in the pic is all floating in water, so yes it still looks like that when glass is clean.

my sand was horrible a couple days ago, but just that 1 day of lights out really cleared it up. and again, lastnight at midnight, nothing floating around in water like the pic.

i am baffled.

polyfilter is a little tan, but no chemicals being removed.

i am going to get some gfo to put in with carbon and poly, but don't have any now.

waiting to hear from reef central folks as well.

thanks bud.

Is your glass covered as well? in other words does it still look like that when your glass is freshly cleaned? It looks like some of the gren algae is cleaning up. You sand looks surprisingly clean too. I think you said you were running Polyfilter pad. If so what color is the pad when you replace it?

It does look like a bacteria bloom but honetsly I'm a bit stumped. With your numbers the way they are and no impacts to livestock the good news is I don't think it is anything you need to be too concerned with and it will clear up eventually. Keep runing the Poly and run carbon and GFO too (can't hurt). Just don't overdue the amount of carbon and GFO you use.

Interested to see what the folks over on RC would have to say.

 

[greech]

What is a Bacterial Bloom?

There are 2 types of bacteria at work in our tanks:-

Autotrophic Bacteria - Bacteria capable of synthesizing its own food from inorganic substances, using light or chemical energy. Our beneficial filter bacteria are autotrophs.

Heterotrophic Bacteria - Bacteria that cannot synthesize its own food and is dependent on complex organic substances for nutrition. The heterotrophs in our aquariums mineralise the organic waste (break down the uneaten food, fish waste, dead plant matter etc into ammonia).

Contrary to popular belief, it is commonly the heterotrophs which are seen in our bacterial blooms, not our trusted autotroph nitrifiers.

It is the heterotrophs which are primarily responsible for creating the "bio-film" (slimy residue found on the tank walls and ornaments) which builds up in our aquariums.

The heterotrophs are generally bigger than the autotrophs and therefore don't attach themselves to surfaces with the same ease. They also reproduce much more quickly. Heterotrophs can reproduce in around 15 - 20 minutes, whereas autotrophs can take up to 24 hours to reproduce.

In a newly set-up aquarium, the heterotrophs get to work quicker than the autotrophs, causing the 'cycling bloom' we so often see. Blooms are almost certainly heterotrophic if they are caused by a build up of organic waste in the substrate, which most, if not all, are.

Bacterial blooms are common in tanks with apparently no organics present (for example, where all that is in the tank is water and ammonia for a fishless cycle). This is caused by the dechlorination of the water suddenly enabling the water to support bacterial populations. The heterotrophs immediately get to work on the organics in the water itself. The severity of the bloom and even whether a bloom happens at all is dependant upon the level of organics contained in the water supply.

Our autotroph nitrifiers are strictly aerobic (require oxygen), but the heterotrophs can be facultative anaerobic (they can switch between aerobic and anaerobic function depending on their environment). Therefore the heterotrophs in the substrate will be in their anaerobic state and breaking down the organic waste into ammonia, but if they bloom up into the water column, they will switch to their aerobic form and will start to convert the ammonia back to nitrite, although very inefficiently. The heterotrophs are around 1,000,000 times less efficient at ammonia oxidisation than our beneficial autotrophs as the heterotrophs are not true nitrifiers.

 

[steelerfan67]

thanks greech,

that doesn't sound like good news for me but again, i am testing fine and all snails and my skunk cleaner are acting normal.

matter of fact the little guy is zipping around on the rock as we speak.

does it sound like something i just gotta let run the course and keep up with my weekly tank upkeep?

i will blow the rocks off good this coming friday water change and get what i can up.

 

[greech]

I don't think it sounds bad at all really. Whether this is diatoms or a bacterial bloom it will be short lived as either is eventually going to use up their food source and die off. No way that size of population can sustain itself.

Saw your posts and replies on RC. Yes you have diatoms but now that I have seen pics I am not thinking that is what is causing the water to look that way. I suppose it could be a really large diatom bloom and that's what it looks like when they are free floating. The brown dust you see on your sand and rocks are the frustules (shells) of the diatoms. I suppose the animals themselves in large quantities could cause you water to look this way but I really think you have a bacterial bloom. I can't really say why but diatoms do seem to respond to light. When I had them early on they would cover the sand and by morning the sand would be completely white. After just a couple of hours of the light the sand would be covered again.

Your livestock will be fine IMO. The reason you are not seeing any nutrients is because the algae and the diatoms/bacteria are consuming it as fast as its being produced. This can be a good thing too. All of this is going to consume most/all of what the debris from your dry rock is putting into the water and you will help export those nutrients through their removal during water changes, etc. The difference I see between your tank and mine is that I used about 60% cured live rock and 40% of the BRS dry rock. Not sure if this will be accurate but going to share my theory anyway. The way I see it is I had a somewhat diverse bacteria population to start with because of my cured rock which came from a well established tank locally so when the BRS rock and all the dry organic matter within went in my tank, I had something to start working on it right away. You never added any of this bacteria and had a very brief cycle with fairly low concentrations showing up despite leaving several shrimp in the tank to decay. Starting with just the dry rock and sand probably limited the diversity of your population and what your seeing now is that diversity inventing itself. Like the article above mentioned some bacteria need light, chemicals, etc and you just recently added the light and/or increased your light cycle. I'm thing you just struck a match that's all. I'm not saying your tank is cycling, just diversifying but I wouldn't stop testing or doing water changes because eventually all those animals are going to die and I wouldn't count on the surviving bacteria to be able to take care of that itself.

Again, sort of grasping at straws there but that is how I would be approaching the situation...testing, water changes, run carbon and GFO (if they are diatoms you have a fair amount of silicates and Rowaphos is the way to go IMO), keep your filter and media clean and keep those tunzes high enough that you have good surface agitation/gas exchange. I would leave the lights on a regular schedule too and let all this run its course. Turning the lights off or cutting them back is likely going to prolong this.

I have a feeling this will all be past you soon. Just part of the deal

 

[steelerfan67]

thanks again bud,

very much appreciated.

i am upstairs with tank now and there is hardly any of the haze now and in the morning it is back hard, so i have to believe you are correct and that it is a bacterial thing going on,as if it were diatoms they would be going constant i would think.

i am gonna get some rowaphos then and run that with my carbon and polyfilter.

will continue with my weekly routine of cleaning filter, blowing rocks off, water change etc.

what do you mean by "eventually all those animals are going to die"? what animals? i hope not my snails and shrimp?

and i did put my lights back on too.

would you ditch the ball of cheato i got in tank or let it be?

thanks again man.

I don't think it sounds bad at all really. Whether this is diatoms or a bacterial bloom it will be short lived as either is eventually going to use up their food source and die off. No way that size of population can sustain itself.

Saw your posts and replies on RC. Yes you have diatoms but now that I have seen pics I am not thinking that is what is causing the water to look that way. I suppose it could be a really large diatom bloom and that's what it looks like when they are free floating. The brown dust you see on your sand and rocks are the frustules (shells) of the diatoms. I suppose the animals themselves in large quantities could cause you water to look this way but I really think you have a bacterial bloom. I can't really say why but diatoms do seem to respond to light. When I had them early on they would cover the sand and by morning the sand would be completely white. After just a couple of hours of the light the sand would be covered again.

Your livestock will be fine IMO. The reason you are not seeing any nutrients is because the algae and the diatoms/bacteria are consuming it as fast as its being produced. This can be a good thing too. All of this is going to consume most/all of what the debris from your dry rock is putting into the water and you will help export those nutrients through their removal during water changes, etc. The difference I see between your tank and mine is that I used about 60% cured live rock and 40% of the BRS dry rock. Not sure if this will be accurate but going to share my theory anyway. The way I see it is I had a somewhat diverse bacteria population to start with because of my cured rock which came from a well established tank locally so when the BRS rock and all the dry organic matter within went in my tank, I had something to start working on it right away. You never added any of this bacteria and had a very brief cycle with fairly low concentrations showing up despite leaving several shrimp in the tank to decay. Starting with just the dry rock and sand probably limited the diversity of your population and what your seeing now is that diversity inventing itself. Like the article above mentioned some bacteria need light, chemicals, etc and you just recently added the light and/or increased your light cycle. I'm thing you just struck a match that's all. I'm not saying your tank is cycling, just diversifying but I wouldn't stop testing or doing water changes because eventually all those animals are going to die and I wouldn't count on the surviving bacteria to be able to take care of that itself.

Again, sort of grasping at straws there but that is how I would be approaching the situation...testing, water changes, run carbon and GFO (if they are diatoms you have a fair amount of silicates and Rowaphos is the way to go IMO), keep your filter and media clean and keep those tunzes high enough that you have good surface agitation/gas exchange. I would leave the lights on a regular schedule too and let all this run its course. Turning the lights off or cutting them back is likely going to prolong this.

I have a feeling this will all be past you soon. Just part of the deal

 

[greech]

No, sorry! Meant the diatoms and/or bacteria (which I guess the later wouldn't be classified as animals ). Sorry to have spooked you!

I don't think the chaeto is hurting anything other than some stray strands floating around and getting caught up in your filter, etc. I know I mentioned this but keep you water aerated too. Your larger animals (shrimp, etc) are going to need it if that is a bacterial bloom.

Rowa is a good idea IMO. Pretty sure my dry rock contained some silicates. BTW when you get the Rowa don't add too much right away. For your tank you probably only need about 2 tbsps which you can put in the bag that comes with it and put that in your AC filter. Once you have used it a couple times you can bump it up to say 3 tbsps. Read the instructions that come with it. Also keep it sealed and in a damp/cool place. May even want to keep the whole container it in a large ziploc bag. You don't want it to dry out.

 

[steelerfan67]

will do greech.

i take it that you take the rowphos out after a few days or do you leave it in like carbon and change every couple weeks?

 

[greech]

It's safe to leave in and it won't leach back out into the tank when it is expended. I started out running mine 24/7 and then I started to notice the issue I mentioned with my LPS. I have read that sometimes GFO will do this to LPS if your water is too clean so I started only running it a few days each month. However, now that I know my issue with LPS has more to do with parasites I put the Rowa back in and am now running it all the time again. I think you will want to change it out after the first week and then wait a couple weeks before chaning it out again. Eventually you should be able to get a month out of 2 to 3 tbsps but right now you want to keep it changed out so you can make a dent in what you have going on. I never have phosphates show up on my tests (probably because the test doesn't read low enough) but when I have to start cleaning my glass more than twice a week, I change it out.

Keep in mind there are cheaper GFOs out there but none of them work as good on silicates as Rowa IMO. If you do have silicates and one you have removed them you could consider going with the bulk reef supply GFO or something like Phosban. Up to you but I have no complaints about Rowa (other than the price ).

 

[steelerfan67]

will check out price now as you are scaring me

i can say this is a benefit of a small tank, even expensive stuff can be purchased moreso than having a 125+ gallon...

just read the reviews greech and sounds great.

my question, since i don't run a reactor, i saw that they were really fine particles.

do you think if i ran it in a woman's nylon bunched in with the carbon it would be ok at containing it without it going everywhere?

It's safe to leave in and it won't leach back out into the tank when it is expended. I started out running mine 24/7 and then I started to notice the issue I mentioned with my LPS. I have read that sometimes GFO will do this to LPS if your water is too clean so I started only running it a few days each month. However, now that I know my issue with LPS has more to do with parasites I put the Rowa back in and am now running it all the time again. I think you will want to change it out after the first week and then wait a couple weeks before chaning it out again. Eventually you should be able to get a month out of 2 to 3 tbsps but right now you want to keep it changed out so you can make a dent in what you have going on. I never have phosphates show up on my tests (probably because the test doesn't read low enough) but when I have to start cleaning my glass more than twice a week, I change it out.

Keep in mind there are cheaper GFOs out there but none of them work as good on silicates as Rowa IMO. If you do have silicates and one you have removed them you could consider going with the bulk reef supply GFO or something like Phosban. Up to you but I have no complaints about Rowa (other than the price ).

 

[greech]

No need. It comes with a nice little bag in the container.

Bottles run from about $17 to $45 around here depending on what size you get. It's not bad considering how little you use but more expensive than carbon and some other GFOs.