Once I have finished gathering evidence, I may post a summary of conclusions - written from a nooB's perspective - which, if it meets quality guidelines - might be just that - I know it would have helped me to have one such early on. I got a fishless cycle diary going on too...
Where do these elusive bacteria live anyway?
- Thread starter rajseth
- Start date
I hope you don't mind if I interject some of my observations.
bacteria tend to colonize in the filters more as the water is forces thru oxygenated and carying food. add to that we diliberatly add media to accomadate increase of the bacterial colony. this is not to say that the same won't happen in a ugf/rfug.
but the amount of media per square inch is very high.
that said..I have cycled tanks using filter squeezins and gravel from an estabished tank.
while I believe there is a consoiderable amount of bacteria in the gravel..my finds are that a tank cycled with filter squeezins cycles several days faster than using gravel hangin in a filter.(3-5 days as opposed to 7-10)
also bacteria die off when there is drop in food supply and or O2(stagnat water) unlike a virus which can close itself into a spore like state and emerge when the condtions are favorable sometimes mutated to fit the environment(yes there is no cure for the common cold)..bacteria will have to repopulate.(biology in college)
bacteria tend to colonize in the filters more as the water is forces thru oxygenated and carying food. add to that we diliberatly add media to accomadate increase of the bacterial colony. this is not to say that the same won't happen in a ugf/rfug.
but the amount of media per square inch is very high.
that said..I have cycled tanks using filter squeezins and gravel from an estabished tank.
while I believe there is a consoiderable amount of bacteria in the gravel..my finds are that a tank cycled with filter squeezins cycles several days faster than using gravel hangin in a filter.(3-5 days as opposed to 7-10)
also bacteria die off when there is drop in food supply and or O2(stagnat water) unlike a virus which can close itself into a spore like state and emerge when the condtions are favorable sometimes mutated to fit the environment(yes there is no cure for the common cold)..bacteria will have to repopulate.(biology in college)
Thanks a ton star_rider
That is fabulous information. I wonder how much filter squeezings impact the squeezee tank?? anyone?
Seems like since rinsing your filter every now and then in tank water (just before being dumped) is recommended - could it be we have free lunch, whereas the squeezee colony is not impacted too badly, while the recipient gets enough to jump start life.
:idea:
The numbers tell the story. The bacteria number in the tens of millions, and can quadruple in a day - so even a few million critters from the donor tank can seriously jumpstart a new tank.
Lets suppose that a tank can support / needs 16 million bacteria. Under optimal conditions, it would take 12 days to establish that colony ( 24 doubles @ 1/2 day each).
But just 6% of the bacteria from an established tank (i.e. 1 million), reduces that to 2 days. It is not surprising that filter squeezings can result in a 3-5 day cycle.
But star_rider's observations also imply that the gravel is not such a hotbed of bacteria (at least without the UGF), since that doesn't help nearly that much.
Lets have more anecdotal evidence please !!
That is fabulous information. I wonder how much filter squeezings impact the squeezee tank?? anyone?
Seems like since rinsing your filter every now and then in tank water (just before being dumped) is recommended - could it be we have free lunch, whereas the squeezee colony is not impacted too badly, while the recipient gets enough to jump start life.
:idea:
The numbers tell the story. The bacteria number in the tens of millions, and can quadruple in a day - so even a few million critters from the donor tank can seriously jumpstart a new tank.
Lets suppose that a tank can support / needs 16 million bacteria. Under optimal conditions, it would take 12 days to establish that colony ( 24 doubles @ 1/2 day each).
But just 6% of the bacteria from an established tank (i.e. 1 million), reduces that to 2 days. It is not surprising that filter squeezings can result in a 3-5 day cycle.
But star_rider's observations also imply that the gravel is not such a hotbed of bacteria (at least without the UGF), since that doesn't help nearly that much.
Lets have more anecdotal evidence please !!
just starting cycling another tank i just took out the media from another tank. i put it in the new tank cleaned off all the gunk and squesed it until i didnt see any dirty coming out of it.
I got a billion questions...but I'll just ask a few
.I presume you then put the media back in the original? What kind of media was it that you "squeezed"? I am using the penguin 200 - not much squeezable - the bio wheel is the bio wheel, and the fiber filter has this plastic frame, making it not very squeezable. Once I have a cycled tank, I think I will have to put some potscrubbers in the penguin 200 to have some transferable bacteria.
How long has the new tank been up, hours or days?
Fish or not? If not, ammonia yet or not?
tank, filter, substrate info?
C'mon man I wanna know, and how will I know if we cant :read: about it. Don't make me come down there and get it out of you!
Are you actually ever going to have a little faith in the bacteria and set a tank up? 
Hehe....look, you REALLY REALLY are overthinking this.....you can seed a tank with a filter transferred from an established tank (I would say six months or more), or a filter pad from that tank, or a cup or so of gravel from that tank, or a bottle of Seachem Stability used as directed, and add some fish food to it....check your ammonia and nitrate readings, add a few fish after about a week....add a little more bacteria booster....add a few more fish, etc. For your two tank/water bridge system I would make sure you colonize both tanks...just divide the seed source material and place in both tanks...each side should have a filtration source. I have used this method for decades....successful tank cycles=100%...ammonia spikes=0. That's my "empirical" evidence....success with no fish harmed.
I really chuckle to myself when I read all these cycling threads, with all the debates about where is the bacteria, using cleaning products, and the Mr. Science projects...while it's interesting, its often much more info than is necessary to get the tank going...quite frankly, cycling is the easy part.....just get the bacteria in the tank, give it a simple food source, and let it do its stuff! Have fun!
Hehe....look, you REALLY REALLY are overthinking this.....you can seed a tank with a filter transferred from an established tank (I would say six months or more), or a filter pad from that tank, or a cup or so of gravel from that tank, or a bottle of Seachem Stability used as directed, and add some fish food to it....check your ammonia and nitrate readings, add a few fish after about a week....add a little more bacteria booster....add a few more fish, etc. For your two tank/water bridge system I would make sure you colonize both tanks...just divide the seed source material and place in both tanks...each side should have a filtration source. I have used this method for decades....successful tank cycles=100%...ammonia spikes=0. That's my "empirical" evidence....success with no fish harmed.I really chuckle to myself when I read all these cycling threads, with all the debates about where is the bacteria, using cleaning products, and the Mr. Science projects...while it's interesting, its often much more info than is necessary to get the tank going...quite frankly, cycling is the easy part.....just get the bacteria in the tank, give it a simple food source, and let it do its stuff! Have fun!
:OT:
WHAT OVERTHINKING - NO WAY MAN!!!! No one ever accused me of that!
(the only way I know how to do it - fully obsessive)
I got two tanks set up - per my signature - a 29G & a 10G. bot the the 10G with the kids over christmas and set it up Jan 6 - with 1 Betta.
The 29G came in early feb, and the two ran as one tank. Then came the poor LFS advice (culminating in fishy funerals), and now here we are, with survivors in the 29G, and fishless in the 10G. (I think my non-scientific 29G may have just cycled - NO2 was down to 0.1 yesterday)
The fishy funerals are what I want to avoid. My goal is to create a robust, bulletproof, care-free set-up that the kiddies (and I) can derive visual pleasure from - with two 50G breeders connected by an aqua bridge. Who knows - I might set up the 29G as a plants only tank in the sunny south window, and the 10G as a sump underneath - with the entire thing plumbed together so plants can eat the fishies nitrates.
Now, considering I am a rank NooB - it behooves me to obsess a little, so I get this elaborate (for me) set up right - don't you think!!!
Seriously, in time I will have my own experiences, but till then, I want to extract as much knowledge as I can from those who know. If I had read a thread like this earlier, I would have had a much better understanding of the whole process. So this should help other nooBs out. :dance2:
Are you actually ever going to have a little faith in the bacteria and set a tank up?
WHAT OVERTHINKING - NO WAY MAN!!!!
No one ever accused me of that!(the only way I know how to do it - fully obsessive)
I got two tanks set up - per my signature - a 29G & a 10G. bot the the 10G with the kids over christmas and set it up Jan 6 - with 1 Betta.
The 29G came in early feb, and the two ran as one tank. Then came the poor LFS advice (culminating in fishy funerals), and now here we are, with survivors in the 29G, and fishless in the 10G. (I think my non-scientific 29G may have just cycled - NO2 was down to 0.1 yesterday)
The fishy funerals are what I want to avoid. My goal is to create a robust, bulletproof, care-free set-up that the kiddies (and I) can derive visual pleasure from - with two 50G breeders connected by an aqua bridge. Who knows - I might set up the 29G as a plants only tank in the sunny south window, and the 10G as a sump underneath - with the entire thing plumbed together so plants can eat the fishies nitrates.
Now, considering I am a rank NooB - it behooves me to obsess a little, so I get this elaborate (for me) set up right - don't you think!!!
Seriously, in time I will have my own experiences, but till then, I want to extract as much knowledge as I can from those who know. If I had read a thread like this earlier, I would have had a much better understanding of the whole process. So this should help other nooBs out. :dance2:
I got a billion questions...but I'll just ask a few
I presume you then put the media back in the original? What kind of media was it that you "squeezed"? I am using the penguin 200 - not much squeezable - the bio wheel is the bio wheel, and the fiber filter has this plastic frame, making it not very squeezable. Once I have a cycled tank, I think I will have to put some potscrubbers in the penguin 200 to have some transferable bacteria.
How long has the new tank been up, hours or days?
Fish or not? If not, ammonia yet or not?
tank, filter, substrate info?
C'mon man I wanna know, and how will I know if we cant :read: about it. Don't make me come down there and get it out of you!
yes i put it back in the original tank. it was a sponge from a ac filter. you still can put it in the water and swish it around.
its been a couple days. no fish in it. i added ammonia. tank is 85 gal. filter is a hot mag and a fluval 404 and i have reg gravel i got at home depot.
it might seem hard but when you go and do it you find out its really easy.
It doesn't matter how many square inches of media you have. The bacteria colony will only be as big as your bio-load.
If there is proper surface agitation, all of your water will supply bacteria with O2, so it grows every where.
If bacteria grow mainly in the filter because of access to air, why do canister only tanks work? Must be because the O2 is in the water, just like everything else in the tank.
If there is proper surface agitation, all of your water will supply bacteria with O2, so it grows every where.
If bacteria grow mainly in the filter because of access to air, why do canister only tanks work? Must be because the O2 is in the water, just like everything else in the tank.
Are you actually ever going to have a little faith in the bacteria and set a tank up?
:dance2: Hey my 29G just cycled - or to use rbishop's more apt description - the tank's nitrogen cycle just reached its initial balanced state. And I only have about 10ppm nitrates too - since I have done many H2O changes to keep the fishies happy. I will give it a few days, especially since we wont be here this weekend, but then I want some of my leopard corys - julii, and some neons or cardinals. I can hardly wait
The tough part is going to be to resist the temptation to jumpstart my fishless with this one. I am going to try my best to leave the fishless alone so that I can complete my experiment with it and learn in the process.
Is anybody making book on whether I can stay the course? I wouldn't give me too good odds
