ICK...where does it come from/incubation period???

[redrf900]

Hey Guys/Gals...
After 10 months of fish keeping I finally have ick in my big tank. I assume it's from adding new fish and/or plants from the LFS. EVERYONE was quarantined before that. The fish seemed healthy BEFORE I put them in..So here's the question...Can fish have ick w/o any visible signs???What's the incubation period???Can it come in on infected plants????It's starting to clear up...Almost didn't catch it in time as my loaches have been very reclusive lately. (even BEFORE I added new tankmates and plants).
THANKS in advance for any and all replies..........Jimmy G

[ChilDawg]

Yes, they can have it without visible signs...

Ich is often dormant in fish from LFSs...

The incubation period and life cycle of ich is dependent on temperature.

[OrionGirl]

Sorry, but ich is never dormant. Fish may have a sub-clinical infection, in which they appear healthy but still have the parasite, just not in significant numbers. The healthy immune system of the fish can easily cope with 2-3 parasites without impacting overall health of the fish. These parasites are living their normal life cycle--they have no choice. If the fish becomes stressed, this low level of infection suddenly ballons into a full blown infection. In a show tank, this usually means additional fish are infected.

The life cycle of the parasite is fairly simple. In the infectious stage, the parasite is a free-swimming tomite which burrows into the flesh or gills of the fish. It feeds of of the fish, and then forms a cyst (that white salt-like crystal) which drops off. The cyst transforms into the tomite within a few days, depending on the temperature of the water.

The free swimming stage is the only one medications are effective against. When the parasite is embedded within the fish, medications will not kill it, and the cysts are nearly indestructible. Cysts can be imported on plants/decorations or substrate from an infected tank.

Best treatment--salt and elevated temperatures. Continue with treatment until AT LEAST 4 weeks after the fish show no signs of infection. There are several threads outlining the details here and in FWN.

[ChilDawg]

My bad. I confused dormant with subclinical.

[RTR]

Thank you OG!

[mogurnda]

Ok, here's something that's bugged me for years. The last time I saw freshwater ich was in a colony of buffalohead cichlids that I inherited. There had been no additions of fish to the group, except through births, for a long time. I set them up in their own tank (that had been fallow for years), but made the mistake of leaving the heater off (Heck, it was Tucson in the summer). Imagine months going by, all's well. Then the landlord came in and did some work, and did me the "favor" of turning on the AC full blast. Cold house, cold tank. Ich outbreak within a few days.

I have always assumed that there were a few little parasites going through their life cycle, not bothering anybody while all was well. Then they get a big thermal shock and all heck breaks loose. So, from my point of view, ich can get you at any time, even if you quarantine and keep everything just right. So, whether it's based on a misunderstanding of the parasite's life cycle or not, the idea that ich is "always present" may not be completely inaccurate.

[ChilDawg]

It may be possible to find a group of fish without Ich, period...but I'm not sure where or how to do that.

I certainly would not advocate stressing them so that the little vampires make themselves known, even though that seems to be one of the best ways to rid a tank of ich (b/c you can actually treat for it at that point...)

I'll be interested to see if the current hoopla over garlic as an antiparasitic "medication" is justifiable.

[redrf900]

How much salt should I introduce to the tank??? Will it hurt my loaches and my rainbow shark???I don't think it would hurt the tiger barbs ..They're almost indestructable as long as they're in the water.. j/k ;-)

[RTR]

I am not mainstream on communicable disease/parasites in fish, so I may not fit the standard profiles. But I am extremely neurotic about QT (you get that way with central systems).

While Ich-sensitive fish (this does include both Tiger Barbs and Clown loaches) are in QT, they get prophylactic heat and salt treatment exactly as though they had clinical Ich. I have had temperature stress in my central system, but I have not had Ich outbreaks from it. So I will confidently say that I do know one selection of fish free of the parasite - mine.

I have no experience with garlic as anti-parasite prophylaxis or treatment, but isn't that aimed at gut parasites rather than gill/external?

On the dormant/subclinical bit, for direct observation you certainly cannot tell the difference short of stressing or sacrificing the fish and doing pathology on their gills (not the best idea either - especially for the fish). But it does matter a lot on parasite awareness for hobbyists. It is one of those nasty "what you don't know and can't see can hurt you" things.

[mogurnda]

The salt and heat in quarantine sounds like a decent idea.

[ChilDawg]

Originally posted by RTR
I have no experience with garlic as anti-parasite prophylaxis or treatment, but isn't that aimed at gut parasites rather than gill/external?

Depends on if SW Ich is actually a gut parasite during some stage of its life cycle. That and tapeworms are the main applications that I've seen for garlic.

[mogurnda]

Depends on if SW Ich is actually a gut parasite during some stage of its life cycle. Cryptocaryon, aka saltwater ich, has essentially the same life cycle as FW ich. No time in the gut. A lot of SW fishkeepers swear by garlic for it, though. I have no opinion.

[ChilDawg]

Thanks for the info, Dave!

[RTR]

SW "Ich" and FW Ich are so radically different that it only causes confusion to discuss them together.

[mogurnda]

SW "Ich" and FW Ich are so radically different that it only causes confusion to discuss them together. Huh? They are both dinoflagellates, they both infest the gills and epidermis, and, as far as I can tell, their life histories and sensitive periods for treatment are rather similar. I am here to learn, though, so please give some more information.

[ChilDawg]

I was thinking along the same lines as you, Dave...I agree that calling it Ich is a misnomer but I'd like to know how different they are besides water types...

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by redrf900
Hey Guys/Gals...
After 10 months of fish keeping I finally have ick ...... .... Can it come in on infected plants..Jimmy G Absolutley! -- Ich can come from infected tanks. Put those plants in your tank and, yes, there you go... ICH is such a common disease and shouldn't be..

[wetmanNY]

Cows and Sea-Cows are both mammals. It's the "counterpart" idea tha'ts the problem.

If you called sea otters the marine "counterparts" of the giant Amazonian river otters, then you might expect to find that the river otters would lie on their backs in the river water, cracking shellfish on stones which they carry on their bellies. But they don't; and they don't eat sea urchins like their marine "counterparts" either. "Counterpart," you see, is not a dependable category in the real world of animals. Not that it doesn't have a long history. Medieval thinkers expanded on some hints that they read in Roman natural history writers to imagine that every terrestrial creature had its "counterpart" in the sea. Part of the symmetry that made Creation perfect... But that's getting a long way from the fish tank... -- www.skepticalaquarist.com under "Ich"

[NJ Devils Fan]

I know I'm a bit late, but I wanted to just post a link to my Ich page (http://members.tripod.com/njdevilsfan130/ich.htm). It might offer some help even though those long posts I skipped might have all the info.;) ;)

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by RTR
SW "Ich" and FW Ich are so radically different that it only causes confusion to discuss them together. Thanks !

For real, it does make a difference!!

[ChilDawg]

I'll try to refer to them differently from now on b/c what y'all have said makes sense...it's now referred to as "Crypt" when I speak of it.

[mogurnda]

I don't particularly feel like hijacking this thread, but my point was that, for many purposes, the two are analagous. Homologous, even. They share trophont, tomont, and theront stages. The point in their life cycles in which they are treatable is the same.

Obviously, there are differences with regard to their adaptation to marine vs FW environments. The treatments of choice are also different.

With regard to the otter analogy, there is a lot of basic otter biology that is shared between the two. Some of it might be relevant if one has a tank infested with otters.

I have belabored this quite enough. Unless I'm missing something, I haven't seen anything in this thread or the Skeptical Aquarist that contradicts my statement about "essentially the same life cycle." But this thread was about FW ich.

[wetmanNY]

I don't have firsthand experience with the parasitic marine ciliate Cryptocaryon irritans, but a major difference between it and the parasitic freshwater ciliate Ichthyophthirius multifiliss in my reading is that it can remain in its encysted, sporulating life-stage-- the tomont-- for weeks and weeks. (Was that the cryptic "seed" or carya of its naming? I don't know.)

Ich remains cryptic, or sub-clinical, as long as the trophonts are invisibly attached to the exposed, sensitive gill lamellae. When the infestation grows enough that trophonts are visible on fins (first), and mucus-protected outer skin (typically last of all), we recognize the infestation with the naked eye.

[RTR]

The fact that both are protzoans and share life cycle stages does not at all mean the tank handling is the same. Just the fact that the normal environment for one if full seawater and the other is quite sensitive to salt is more than a trivial difference. One is quite easy to clear and cure with proper handling without medication, the other not so simple.

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by ChilDawg
Yes, they can have it without visible signs...
Ich is often dormant in fish from LFSs...
... ..... ... .... Actually, --- "dormant" is a good way to explain it to "non-fishy folk".

Ich is such a prevalent disease that it should be termed in an esoteric way...

Be aware that Ich is real, and common! Too bad it's sooo common!! :mad:

[RTR]

Joe - I'm picking on you today - but "dormant" in biology has meaning, refering to a state which Ich is incabable of achieving. I personally do not believe that we should use language known to be incorrect, and I personally will never do so intentionally. So, IMHO, "dormant" is a poor and misleading way to explain it.

Much, much more of the real biology of aquaria is coming to be known. Misguiding newcomers is not the way to develop their knowledge or understanding. That to me smacks of marketing, which should never be confused with teaching..

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by RTR
Joe - I'm picking on you today - but "dormant" in biology has meaning, refering to a state which Ich is incabable....... Misguiding newcomers is not the way to develop their knowledge or understanding. ....... I wouldn't mis-guide newcomers, but I'm no Biologist either...

Seemed like a simplfied way to explain the situation. Simple can be better sometimes. IMHO

[RTR]

Simple is good, but only if it is true and valid. If it is false, it is misleading and causes confusion.

[mogurnda]

I give. My point was more of a semantic issue, that probably should have been a "compare and contrast ich and cryptocaryon" thread than taking up space here.

I can't find anything at home here about a truly dormant stage in crytpocaryon, However, just like ich, its time is limited off the host. 2 weeks max. I'll check at work this pm.

I got a chuckle out of this when I was re-reading Martin Moe's Marine Aquarium Reference:
The ciliate, Ichthyophthirius multifilis, causes the fearsome "ich" that is the freshwater counterpart of Cryptocaryon irritans." I think the world of Martin Moe, but it does seem silly after this discussion.

[wetmanNY]

Joe, these distinctions of words only mean something-- as in this "dormant" thing-- when casual informal usage leads to fruitless and unnecessary struggles. Example: people who think Ich lurks dormant away from its host take precautions to equalize travelling water and tank water to two degrees, when if they understood the life-cycle, they'd be using their energy in quarantining instead.

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by wetmanNY
Joe, these distinctions of words....... Example: people who think Ich lurks dormant away from its host take precautions to equalize travelling water and tank water to two degrees, when if they understood the life-cycle, they'd be using their energy in quarantining instead.

So, in 'other words' using water for changes at very close temperatures is an unnecessary precaution and ignore it?? That's misleading when I heard and read over and over again the importance of it. It is a stress and Ich issue without a doubt. Can Ich be introduced with 'new' plants? I would say it's good not to aggravated a disease with unnecessary stress. Ich does have a life-cycle. Can most aquarists really believe their tanks are 100% free of Ich?

There's the "we can agree to disagree" statement that is needed here, when it applies to water temps and stress.

Next, I just learned that there "Is" a certain amount of "immunity" in "LFS" fish when it comes to "Ich" ... This "immunity" is so very close to appearing like "dormancy" -- of course not "technically" the exact same thing... I do stand corrected on "dormancy".

It wasn't me that stated quarrantining is not a good idea.
It is a good practice. Realistically, not all do it.

I will always stand by what I say about water changes, and people should not be careless and get a thermometer out to check that water changes are kept very close in temperature. There's no waste of energy and time when it comes to that...

[125gJoe]

Originally posted by wetmanNY
...-- when casual informal usage leads to fruitless ..... And--
I will try and be 'less casual' and 'not as informal'. (Ooops, 'more formal')


Now - how about any truth to some fish having a "degree of immunity" and not as readily show signs of Ich?


I'm curiuos as if this is "bogus"....

(darn, I'm being informal again! ) ,....what to do... that word bogus just doesn't "work".. :D

[ChilDawg]

Mendacious?

[RTR]

"Bogus" is fully valid as a word and quite clear in meaning - probably more than then the phrase "snake oil" that I use for bogus products in discussion routinely. ;)

Post-infection immunity does exist to greater or lesser degree in fish. That is real and valid. Native or natural immunity does also exist. Also real and valid. Most folks are aware that there are wide variations in which fish get Ich most often or first - Clown Loaches are notoriously susceptible. So there are variations between types/species of fish as well as within a species among individuals. As with other infectious processes, stress can reduce immunity.

I believe wetman's point was on relative importance of aquarium practices. Being anal about water temperature during a routine tank partial may or or may not be justified. If the tank is at 76F (and if that figure is accurate) and the change water is at 80F, in a 25% partial, the differential in the two will result in an increase in the tank of one degree F. Where is the trauma? There is none IMHO and IME. But this does not mean you can or should be sloppy - it means you have to know the relative importance of the factors involved.

When inroducing new fish to a tank, QT is at least a couple of orders of magnitude ahead of exact temperature match, pH match is trivial, TDS match is much less trivial - but how many folk do you know who even know what TDS is, much less test for it? Folk who follow rote instructions without understanding what or why they are doing this are more likely to get into hot water than someone with some understanding of what factors get what weight and why, and then adapting their techniques to fit that knowledge.

Does that help clarify? Understanding of the process and its implications lift practices from rote and myth/folklore to reality. Then you are using "best availbale practice" techniques instead of comforting but baseless ritual. There is no magic to keeping a fish tank, but there is one heck of a lot of biology - not all of it perfectly undertood, but much more of it known than a couple of decades ago, and whole orders of magnitude more than when I started this hobby.

[mogurnda]

Post deleted. Seemed too negative.

Basically, I agree that people should be careful with their wording, and try to be thorough in their explanations. Did I say dinoflagellate?