Gasping Lion and Tang?

[OrionGirl]

Came home to find the blue tang and lion both lying on their sides, breathing hard, and not eating. No physical signs of any problem (on the lion--the tang is buried in the rock, and we can just see his mouth). Nitrates are less than 10, ph is 8.2, temp is 80.1, sg is 1.024. No one else appears in distress, ccorals are out and happy, inverts are scrambling around like normal, trigger is swimming his normal laps.

Setup: 2 65 gallon tanks and one 50, plumbed together with a 20 gallon sump. Lion is in with the trigger, LR, DSB, and caulerpa, tang is in the reef with LR, DSB, a blue damsel, a bicolor angel, engineer goby, and a mandarin dragonnette, mix of crabs, stars, etc. In the process of doing a water change.

Any ideas what could be going on here? I'd hate to lose either...We're about 2 weeks away from upgrading the tanks for these 2 fish.

[Marvin]

Lion and Tang!!! Hang in there!!

[MonoSebaelover]

I am assuming knowing you Orion no Nitrite and Ammonia, so possibly pump failure, or electricity in the water by somehow (maybe the trigger biting a cord of some sort), or increase in temp, or....or......or, oh man I am out of ideas. I will try and think some more and repost if I get any other ideas. Anyway, hope this helps and hope they do okay. It is horrible and very frustrating when something goes wrong with a well established fish and no idea why.

[OrionGirl]

That confirms one thing we just tested--there was about 1 volt of electricty present. It's grounded out now....Hoping that helps.

The grounding probes have been on order--which has been delayed in shipping for 3 weeks due to the lights also on the same order.

[mogurnda]

[grasping, as usual]
Could they have been strung by anything? Any new live rock or live sand lately?

[OrionGirl]

Nope, Dave, nothing new added to the system in quite some time. And, any additions would be unlikely to affect them both--the water is combined, but goes through the sump and pumps before mixing...Doesn't exclude the possibility of a parasite moving between tanks, but without anything being new....Seems like a long shot.

Sigh. There isn't much that I've been able to find documenting the effects of voltage on fish---other than electroshocking in streams. :shake:

[mogurnda]

Missed the part about 2 separate tanks, doh!

I am just a bit dubious about the stray voltage affecting those two fish so rapidly, but leaving the others unaffected.

Good luck. I hope they're better by morning.

[OrionGirl]

Yeah, I'm not sure about that either. They are the largest fish in the tanks...Not sure if that's relevant? The tang is a regal, and he was stunted when we got him, and is about 6 years old now, while the lion we've had for 3 years, about 9 inches of fish (not the tail and fins), from a little tiny guy no bigger than my thumb.

This sucks.

[DEmigh]

Food poisoning?

Is there anyway that a cat (or the like) can get above the main tanks, or the sump, and knock something in that might be taken as food? My regal tang is the most voracious feeder in the tank and will strike at anything remotely bite-sized in the water. I presume (dangerous, I know) that a lion would do the same.

I'm grasping here... best wishes for your fishes.

[Triggerman]

I had a heater explode on my pred tank in the middle of the night.
My girlfriend instantly smelled it as she is the lightest sleeper I have ever known,what a curse.
Had a six inch eel,two and a half inch para oxy.damsel and a very large lion (6"that I had had for quite a while,dwarf fuzzy.
The eel and damsel layed on the bottom for a couple of days.
I lost the lion that night and watched him die.
I still miss leo he was way cool.

[OrionGirl]

Well, the tang had a spasm last night, and died. The lion is still alive this morning--he's orienting better, and not gasping as much, so we'll cross our fingers and hope.

There isn't anyway for the cats to knock anything into the tanks--the sump is covered, and all the tanks are contained within the canopy and stand, no access. The fish were both swimming around and fine yesterday morning, so I'm just stumped if the single volt isn't to blame.

[MonoSebaelover]

So sorry to hear about the Tang!!!!! Hope the Lion makes it!

[Oakley]

Sorry to hear that OG, just wish i could help you out in some way, you are always there for me and all the others when help is needed, keeping my fingers crossed for the lion.

[gbolton]

The single volt in of itself is not what the cocern would be but rather the current in the system. Even now though if you just put grouding probes in, it would still be prudent to determine where your electricity leak is.

[OrionGirl]

Yeah, did that--it's in the powerheads. They're being replaced when the new tanks get setup. I'm just stumped by this--ATJ over at Reefcentral indicates that voltage is more prone to causing a host chronic problems, rather than serious, specific symptom like this. :shake:

[gbolton]

Well there are really only two things that electricity can do to an organism either cause burns or interfere with electrical synapse firing. Usually it’s the hearts electrical field that is affect but I guess that other muscle or neurological aspects could be affected. The note on the burns though is that these could be any where external or internal.

[DEmigh]

RIP tang :sad

Now I'm going to go check my powerheads...

[mogurnda]

In order to affect excitability or synaptic function, a field would have to be pretty whopping, especially in saltwater. As OrionGirl says, weak electric fields are supposedly associated with chronic problems, like HLLE. Even then, the evidence is pretty scarce. Although I can't come up with anything better, I am not convinced that the voltage was to blame.

I'm glad to hear the lion is perking up, though. Hope it pulls through.

[Makaiveli]

The Lion released some poison into the water?

[OrionGirl]

Nope, they can't do that. The spines release a toxin only when you make contact with them, and requires a bit more than just contact. I've had my hand brushed with the tip of the spine and not reacted in any way. I'm hoping he's in good shape when I get home this afternoon.

[OrionGirl]

The lion died. Insert inappropriate for a family board words.

And, the mandarin is acting funny, now as well.

Whole string of them words.

[mogurnda]

More of those words from here. That's awful.

Have you tried throwing a bag of carbon in?

Just thinking that maybe the bad powerhead leaked something. Don't ask me why it would get the fish one by one.

[Max]

I'm so sorry O.G. and I wish that there was something I could do besides guess. Have you gotten any new foods/products lately? I'd also ask about your dsb but, you know how hydrogen sulfide smells . There has to be some pathogen in your water I'd do an emergency water change and see if that helps. Again I'm sorry to have to guess especially since you're always there for us!
Best of luck
chris
:(

[gbolton]

Real long shot but I was reading an article the other day on the affect of viruses on common pets. One of which was aquarium pets it seems that we quite often introduce virses to our pets they would have never encountered in the wild and may or may not affect them. Just thinking out lound wish I could be more help but not really sure. I did send some emails to a fe marine biologist freinds of mine I will let you know if they have anything useful for you Orion. Sorry

[DEmigh]

The lion sleeps tonight...

:( :confused: :argh :sad

[Makaiveli]

Did you do any large water changes during this episode?

[OrionGirl]

Well, the mandarin is still alive. Still breathing heavy, and he's lost some of his slime coat (mandarins always have thick, heavy slime coats, making them resitant to parasites, normally), and no one else is struggling. The mandarin is in my 10 for now--he's not eating, but there's about 2 days worth of copopods if he decides to try, and he will take prepared foods, so should be okay for now.

The reef was torn down last night to remove all the fish, and they are all (including the trigger) currently in a 50, being medicated for parasites. Lacking any other symptoms, despite no known vector, this seemed the most likely possible cause. So far they are all active and behaving normally--the damsel got nipped by the trigger, but that's the only conflict thus far. The main tank inverts and corals are still thriving--xenia pulsing, colts out and happy, etc.

It's been a rough couple days--didn't get to bed until after midnight last night, since the meds came from Ft Collins. Spent most of today tearing apart the water storage system to clean it out, just in case, and trying to normal weekend household chores as well.

On the plus side, tearing the reef apart uncovered a very large red brittle star never seen before. Must have been a hitch hiker many moons ago that thrived. Also found some nifty sponges, and several smaller brittles.

Thanks for the support, all!

[tricksterpup]

OG-
I hope everything is going well with the remaining fish. I know how it feels when something happens to your tank and loose everything. So I have my fingers crossed so you do not have to go through that.
Please keep us updated. How is the mandarin doing?

jim

[OrionGirl]

The mandarin died yesterday. It had a spasm similar to the tengs, and died within seconds. Sigh.

All the other fish are still in the hospital tank, and are in great shape. Active, hungry, etc. Still no clue what happened to the three that died. The coral in the reef are still open and feeding, healthy. Ditto for the inverts--blood shrimp, crabs, snails, hermits, stars; every one looks and behaves as though nothing is wrong. :scratch: Other than the speed of decline, it looks like a parasite, simply by symptoms, but what wouldn't hit the other fish as well? The speed looks like a toxin, but what would hit just those 3 fishh and not the other fish and corals? Even conditions such as low oxygen levels would hit the corals hard. I'm stumped.

[mogurnda]

Lame theory #27: red tide.

Twitching then dying sounds a lot like a neurotoxin. What if something spawned and the eggs or larvae were toxic? If it was something like saxitoxin, which blocks ion channels in nerve cells, then the fish would be affected but corals would be immune. Some of the fish injested whatever it was, then it went away, leaving the others unaffected. Of course, the 3 fish that died had totally different eating habits.

So far, my theories have batted around 0.00, I don't expect this to be different.

[Oakley]

Sorry about your losses OG :(

Do vets do postmortems on fish? if so this might give you an idea of what happened.

[Max]

I agree with morg it sounds almost like you had a cucumber or something likeit spaw and your critters all ate differing amounts of eggs. If I'm not mistaken ,"and I may well be", cucumber eggs cause death by renal failure and that might explain why only certain fish are affected and why the times of death are so spread out. I'm VERY sorry O.G. and I know this is just a guess but, we're trying
so sorry
Chris
:sad

[OrionGirl]

Yeah, that's a theory I considered heavily. There are urchins in the system, though no cucumbers. The problem with this is the lion--he was a lunker, and though he would chase small food items, he never ate them. The trigger, on the other hand, would go after anything and at least try it--so I keep thinking the trigger would be more likely to succumb to something like that than the lion. The mandarin and tang would certainly go after small food items--but I'd think the damsel and angel would as well. [shrug]

Sigh. I'm afraid this one might just be a stumper. All the remaining fish are still healthy and hungry in the hospital tank. The plan is to keep them out of the main tanks for at least a month--if it is a paraiste, it should die off without a host in that time; if it's a toxin, it should be removed by the carbon and skimmer by then.