20 gal. L/ GBR planted tank critique please

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Fish_Bone

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Oh and where I found the info on the rocks: http://www.tfhmagazine.com/details/articles/the-german-ram-mikrogeophagus-ramirezi.htm

A Llanos Biotope
Setting up a biotope for rams is not as hard as you think. Use a fine substrate such as natural sand and place rounded water-worn stones randomly on the bottom. Stick-size pieces of driftwood can be scattered throughout this aquarium. Sticklers for realism will opt not to use any plants, and will add aquarium-safe tree leaves such as oak or beech to simulate the layer of debris that collects on the river’s bottom. A few handfuls should suffice. As with any organic matter, these are going to gradually decay in the water, so a close eye will need to be kept on water quality. The upside is that they will help keep the water soft and acidic. Lighting should be kept moderate to subdued. Tankmates for this setup can include Apistogramma species, characins such as the silver hatchetfish Gasteropelecus sternicla, and catfish such as Corydoras, Otocinclus, Hypostomus, and Farlowella.

 

Byron Amazonas

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Picking up the questions from your last three posts.

Flat stones are often used in a ram set-up because they will usually spawn thereon. Nothing wrong with that, it's up to you. My common rams spawned in a depression on the substrate (it was fine gravel back then) and on wood. My Bolivians spawned on flat rock and in a depression in the sand. I sometimes have used a few chunks of relatively flat rock in my Amazon tanks just to keep open areas; chain swords will spread everywhere but a few areas of rock make controlling the plants easier. And the rock I use it the same shade of grey as the play sand, so the rock is really "invisible."

Leaves. Almond are fine, some pet stores now carry them, or online. I use oak because I have an oak tree in the back garden and collecting fallen leaves in the autumn is easy. Leaves, like any plant matter (peat, wood, leaves) will slowly decompose and soften and acidify the water. The rate depends upon the initial GH and pH, how many, etc. In a tank for soft water fish this is not going to be any problem. Leaves also help with controlling some disease, esp bacterial. The number of leaves is up to you, as it is a visual thing. I use leaves in my 33g just as decor, and I have about 6 or 7 at a time. As they decompose, I add a couple more. They need to get waterlogged before they will remain on the substrate, which takes a day or two, so when I add say 3 new leaves at the weekly water change I just put them together between the tank wall and the internal filter, and during the next week's water change I arrange them on the substrate.

I like Malaysian wood because it is heavy and sinks immediately, and I have never had fungus issues. Manzanita wood can harbour toxic fungus, I had this problem and I knew another aquarist who lost all his corys after adding a piece of this wood. Some fungus is safe (appears to be, some fish may even eat it), but some is not, and only a microbiologist examining it under a microscope can tell. Be careful.

I'll come back to aquascapes, but now turn to your stocking ideas. Malaysian livebearing (trumpet) snails are ideal in any tank. You only need one, soon you will have dozens. I bought two about five years ago (they are difficult to get where I am), now my tanks are full of them. I wouldn't be without them. They get everywhere and eat everything organic, breaking it down faster for the plants and bacteria.

If raising fry is intended, don't have any catfish like corys, plecos. These are nocturnal and they will get the eggs/fry when the parents are resting ("sleeping"). Otos should be OK, as they tend to remain off the substrate, though if this were me I would not include them. Otos eat algae, and in the dim light preferred by rams you will not have algae issues. I have otos in one tank, and Farlowella (who also browse leaves for algae) in another; the remaining tanks have no "algae" eaters other than the snails.

Dither fish are useful to keep the rams out and about more, otherwise they can be very timid and frightened. When fish don't see other fish, I guess they think something is wrong. Whatever the reason, a few upper fish work well. Cardinals and rummys are good with respect to being peaceful and managing in the higher temperature better, but I would avoid rummys here. They like to swim more, and longer tanks work better. Cardinals are more sedate, remaining in a group mid- to lower-tank; 9-11 in number here. Hatchetfish as suggested in that article are good for upper levels, but stay with the Carnegiella species like Carnegiella strigata (the marble) or C. marthae (black-winged), as these are smaller and very quiet. Gasteropelecus species are larger and more active and in my view needs a larger space (I have these in my 115g). Pencilfish (except for Nannonstomus beckfordi) work well too. N. eques with its oblique positioning and remaining in the upper levels is ideal. An interesting photo from their habitat is attached, taken by the same collector as the ram photo posted earlier; I just love the way they lined up.

Back to the aquascape. One can be strictly authentic with a biotope, or modify it. Jay973 posted a photo and that is a fine aquascape (though I would prefer floating plants too for more shade). The photo I posted previously shows plants in that habitat, but one can find other habitats with no plants except for marginal and overhanging vegetation. Floating plants do make a big difference, to the fish. They will assume better colour with a roof over them. This is partly the fish's response to "protection," and partly that fish colours tend to show better in such light anyway. I'm attaching 3 photos of some dwarf cichlid aquascapes, the middle one is my former 29g. About the only absolute is that lower plants cannot be high light requiring, since we want lower light.

Nannostomus eques in row2.jpg Apistogramma biotope.jpg Rio Huallaga drainage aquascape.jpg 29g July 18-12.JPG
 

Fish_Bone

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Flat stones are often used in a ram set-up because they will usually spawn thereon. Nothing wrong with that, it's up to you. My common rams spawned in a depression on the substrate (it was fine gravel back then) and on wood. My Bolivians spawned on flat rock and in a depression in the sand. I sometimes have used a few chunks of relatively flat rock in my Amazon tanks just to keep open areas; chain swords will spread everywhere but a few areas of rock make controlling the plants easier.

Ah ok I misread or rather misunderstood what they meant by rounded water-worn stones. I like the idea about controlling plants with selectively placed rocks.

Leaves. Almond are fine, some pet stores now carry them, or online. I use oak because I have an oak tree in the back garden and collecting fallen leaves in the autumn is easy. Leaves, like any plant matter (peat, wood, leaves) will slowly decompose and soften and acidify the water. The rate depends upon the initial GH and pH, how many, etc. In a tank for soft water fish this is not going to be any problem. Leaves also help with controlling some disease, esp bacterial. The number of leaves is up to you, as it is a visual thing. I use leaves in my 33g just as decor, and I have about 6 or 7 at a time. As they decompose, I add a couple more. They need to get waterlogged before they will remain on the substrate, which takes a day or two, so when I add say 3 new leaves at the weekly water change I just put them together between the tank wall and the internal filter, and during the next week's water change I arrange them on the substrate.

I am glad to hear that local leaves will work as well. I am not really wanting the leaves everywhere, maybe I will take a page from your book and have a specific place for them.

I like Malaysian wood because it is heavy and sinks immediately, and I have never had fungus issues. Manzanita wood can harbour toxic fungus, I had this problem and I knew another aquarist who lost all his corys after adding a piece of this wood. Some fungus is safe (appears to be, some fish may even eat it), but some is not, and only a microbiologist examining it under a microscope can tell. Be careful.

I did not know that about manzanita. thank you for warning me. Do you think pressure washing it would be enough? The reason I ask is I found a vendor who claims to do this to make it "safe"...
Are there interesting pieces of Malaysian DW? I have only seen chunks. http://www.manzanita-driftwood.com/

I'll come back to aquascapes, but now turn to your stocking ideas. Malaysian livebearing (trumpet) snails are ideal in any tank. You only need one, soon you will have dozens. I bought two about five years ago (they are difficult to get where I am), now my tanks are full of them. I wouldn't be without them. They get everywhere and eat everything organic, breaking it down faster for the plants and bacteria.

I bought 50 for my 30B tank...I never see them. it was really cool watching them just "melt" into the sand when I put them in though. I fully understand how great these are, I just had no idea that they will reproduce so well. I have had invasions of other species, 6 assassins and 2 clown loaches later I had all but rid of them.

If raising fry is intended, don't have any catfish like corys, plecos. These are nocturnal and they will get the eggs/fry when the parents are resting ("sleeping"). Otos should be OK, as they tend to remain off the substrate, though if this were me I would not include them. Otos eat algae, and in the dim light preferred by rams you will not have algae issues. I have otos in one tank, and Farlowella (who also browse leaves for algae) in another; the remaining tanks have no "algae" eaters other than the snails.

Yeah I read that the rams will not tolerate visitors if they are spawning, so I have no intentions of adding other bottom dwellers. I love my farlowella!!! It is getting so big I need to get my 75 going soon.

Dither fish are useful to keep the rams out and about more, otherwise they can be very timid and frightened. When fish don't see other fish, I guess they think something is wrong. Whatever the reason, a few upper fish work well. Cardinals and rummys are good with respect to being peaceful and managing in the higher temperature better, but I would avoid rummys here. They like to swim more, and longer tanks work better. Cardinals are more sedate, remaining in a group mid- to lower-tank; 9-11 in number here. Hatchetfish as suggested in that article are good for upper levels, but stay with the Carnegiella species like Carnegiella strigata (the marble) or C. marthae (black-winged), as these are smaller and very quiet. Gasteropelecus species are larger and more active and in my view needs a larger space (I have these in my 115g). Pencilfish (except for Nannonstomus beckfordi) work well too. N. eques with its oblique positioning and remaining in the upper levels is ideal. An interesting photo from their habitat is attached, taken by the same collector as the ram photo posted earlier; I just love the way they lined up.

I looked at your suggestions, I have not seen most of these fish before, very neat. I noticed that they are native to the same areas as well. If I was to do blakc winged hatchet and/ or the beckford pencil fish, how many of each? I ask because I saw the beckfords like bigger groups. Are the beckfords really aggressive eaters as my reading suggest? I thought that rams need slow eaters in order to get food since they are slow eaters.

Back to the aquascape. One can be strictly authentic with a biotope, or modify it. Jay973 posted a photo and that is a fine aquascape (though I would prefer floating plants too for more shade). The photo I posted previously shows plants in that habitat, but one can find other habitats with no plants except for marginal and overhanging vegetation. Floating plants do make a big difference, to the fish. They will assume better colour with a roof over them. This is partly the fish's response to "protection," and partly that fish colours tend to show better in such light anyway. I'm attaching 3 photos of some dwarf cichlid aquascapes, the middle one is my former 29g. About the only absolute is that lower plants cannot be high light requiring, since we want lower light.
I have frogbit (and duckweed...) in my 30B I can transfer some over when I set this one up. I have to ask then if my plant selection will survive in the Ram correct lighting? My reading says they are all low light, no Co2, no ferts. I planned to use a light I own already, a marineland single bright LED w/ moonlighting. I can use clamp lights and Micro CFL 13w 6500k bulbs if needed, provided they wont be too much.

Flora:
Monosolenium tenerum, marsilea hirsuta, and either Microsorum pteropus or Cryptocoryne undulata
.
 

Byron Amazonas

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So many questions, I hope I can cut/paste all of them. lol.

I am glad to hear that local leaves will work as well. I am not really wanting the leaves everywhere, maybe I will take a page from your book and have a specific place for them.

Not all leaves work, some will leech highly toxic substances. I know that oak and beech are said to be OK. One article in TFH also included maple as safe.

I did not know that about manzanita. thank you for warning me. Do you think pressure washing it would be enough? The reason I ask is I found a vendor who claims to do this to make it "safe"...
Are there interesting pieces of Malaysian DW? I have only seen chunks

I did see some nice black branch wood in one local store, but it was in their fish tanks and they would not sell it. It looked the same as Malaysian, but I'm not certain. The manzanita is tan or tan upper and dark lower, like Mopani. If wood contains a toxic fungus, you cannot get it out, as it is in the wood. The piece I had that grew toxic fungus was taken out, scrubbed in very hot water, then dried for weeks. I put it in a tank with no fish for over three months and didn't see any fungus, so I thought it might be safe and put it in a fish tank. A few weeks later the fish began dying, several overnight; I examined the wood and saw some fungus on the back side. Out it went.

Yeah I read that the rams will not tolerate visitors if they are spawning, so I have no intentions of adding other bottom dwellers. I love my farlowella!!! It is getting so big I need to get my 75 going soon.

In my experience, upper fish (= non catfish) tend to be OK, as they stay out of the ram's way. But corys are nosy and will blunder into anything, and the rams get very annoyed. At night the eggs/fry are unprotected, so this is when they tend to get eaten. I recall my common rams spawning once, and the female was shepherding the fry around during mid-day, and I happened to be sitting in front of the tank at the time. Two corys just blundered into the shoal, and flew into action. The ram did her best, but couldn't save the fry, they were gobbled up in a matter of seconds.

Do you have one of those larger royal farlowella, or the "common" Farlowella vitatta (or whatever species)? I have three of the latter, one male and two females as it turned out, and they have spawned dozens of times. I have some fry in the 10g growing out, but they are very slow growing, and will only eat algae and similar. The dried leaves have proven to be the best food for these.

I looked at your suggestions, I have not seen most of these fish before, very neat. I noticed that they are native to the same areas as well. If I was to do blakc winged hatchet and/ or the beckford pencil fish, how many of each? I ask because I saw the beckfords like bigger groups. Are the beckfords really aggressive eaters as my reading suggest? I thought that rams need slow eaters in order to get food since they are slow eaters.

This pencil, N. beckfordi, is the one I wouldn't get here. I have a group in my 115g and they can nip fish that get in their way. I had to remove my hatchets. Most of the other species are OK. There are quite a few, not all that common as they will be wild caught (the beckfords are being raised commercially), I have or have had ten different species of Nannostomus to date.

I have frogbit (and duckweed...) in my 30B I can transfer some over when I set this one up. I have to ask then if my plant selection will survive in the Ram correct lighting? My reading says they are all low light, no Co2, no ferts. I planned to use a light I own already, a marineland single bright LED w/ moonlighting. I can use clamp lights and Micro CFL 13w 6500k bulbs if needed, provided they wont be too much.

Flora:
Monosolenium tenerum, marsilea hirsuta, and either Microsorum pteropus or Cryptocoryne undulata.

The Frogbit floating will be fine with that light, but I'm not sure how much will get down into the tank. I was told that the Marineland Double Bright LED would work for me, but so far I haven't been able to afford the change; I intend one day to get this over my 33g. The T8 fixture is getting old (had it since 1995) and the ballast is likely to go one day. M. pteropus will also be fine. C. undulata is iffy, you could try one or two and see. The first two I've not tried myself, but they are said to be low light, though that is a subjective term.

You will need liquid fertilizer for the Frogbit. All surface plants are fast growing, and thus need nutrients. The Flourish Comprehensive will be fine, once a week.

On another matter, I spotted your fish stock in the 30g. You are aware that clown loaches will not do well in this small of a tank? They get 8-12 inches, and really should be in a group of five or more, maybe four minimum. They have a very developed social structure, as do all the botine loaches, and this is quite crucial to their development.

Byron.
 

fishorama

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Ya know, if you're going with "not quite" plants (Asian crypts & ferns), there's nothing wrong with "not quite" rocks too. I have Lake Superior rocks in my river tank & they are NOT the same color, although all are well rounded & smooth; they are red, gray, white etc. Don't stress over "authentic" so much & go for happy fish! & an easy to care for tank.
 

Fish_Bone

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Not all leaves work, some will leech highly toxic substances. I know that oak and beech are said to be OK. One article in TFH also included maple as safe.

OK good deal.
Do you have one of those larger royal farlowella, or the "common" Farlowella vitatta (or whatever species)? I have three of the latter, one male and two females as it turned out, and they have spawned dozens of times. I have some fry in the 10g growing out, but they are very slow growing, and will only eat algae and similar. The dried leaves have proven to be the best food for these.

IMAG1966.jpgIMAG1835.jpgIMAG1837.jpg
I am honestly not sure which species I have. Last time I got a good measurement on him he was every bit 7 inches.

This pencil, N. beckfordi, is the one I wouldn't get here. I have a group in my 115g and they can nip fish that get in their way. I had to remove my hatchets. Most of the other species are OK. There are quite a few, not all that common as they will be wild caught (the beckfords are being raised commercially), I have or have had ten different species of Nannostomus to date.

Sorry, I went back and found that I when I was just pulling fish names and google searching them I missed where it said NO beckfordi. So what would be a good mix, without maxing out the tank capacity? I really want to keep the stock minimum to try and avoid poor water conditions. I do 50% WC on my 30B weekly because I use the E.I. dosing and my tank might be to FULL. Will that be enough for this tank as well?
The Frogbit floating will be fine with that light, but I'm not sure how much will get down into the tank. I was told that the Marineland Double Bright LED would work for me, but so far I haven't been able to afford the change; I intend one day to get this over my 33g. The T8 fixture is getting old (had it since 1995) and the ballast is likely to go one day. M. pteropus will also be fine. C. undulata is iffy, you could try one or two and see. The first two I've not tried myself, but they are said to be low light, though that is a subjective term.

I agree "low light" is very much a subjective term. Ultimately I want the plants to be successful as well as the keeping of the fish, so if need be I will upgrade the lighting or maybe use both on 2 phase timer setup so the extra light isnt constant but still should be enough to provide for the plants.

You will need liquid fertilizer for the Frogbit. All surface plants are fast growing, and thus need nutrients. The Flourish Comprehensive will be fine, once a week.

OK.

On another matter, I spotted your fish stock in the 30g. You are aware that clown loaches will not do well in this small of a tank? They get 8-12 inches, and really should be in a group of five or more, maybe four minimum. They have a very developed social structure, as do all the botine loaches, and this is quite crucial to their development.

I am aware of the size they reach, they where a means to an end in the epic snail battle of 2013. I have a 75 gallon, but it is not setup and really not big enough in the end. I have not committed to a full plan of action, but either selling them here, CL, or trying to trade them in are my options. And the timeline for this is...I know I need to though...

I think I am going to keep the rocks or at least some of them. I am still going to strive to provide a quasi biotope for them.
My challenge I see right now is finding suitable DW...

Byron, I have to say our conversation has led me down a new path of information I could not find initially on my own, thank you. Keep the good info coming!!!





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