Cichlids and barbs
- Thread starter Grundy
- Start date
Really... Well firstly, they seem to have done fairly well over the last year, and secondly, I think you'll find that a pH of right around 7 is in range for all the fish in the tank - I checked before I bought anything. If that isn't the case, then the (several) places I looked have incorrect information. Also, the (many) people who ALSO have clown loaches with their cichlids must be wrong as well?homer3d455840 said:
Your ph is around 7? That is not very precise. Having a pH "in the range" is not the same as having similar water conditions. A fish's "pH range" are conditions that the fish can tolerate, not the conditions they do best in. And yes there are many selfish people out there that will do whatever pleases themselves...and not their fish. The differences between the waters of Borneo and Lake Malawi are so numerous I could go on for days about it.rmcder said:
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Yes, I agree that the "natural" waters of these fish are different enough to "go on for days " about, but realistically, these are probably not wild caught fish.
I've bought numerous fish (except Discus) from all sorts of places. i.e. "chain" pet stores, local fish shops, and even private breeders, and have always taken a sample of the bag water they come in.
I seems to me that the type of fish and the water parameters it "needs" don't make an ounce of difference.
By that I mean that "almost" all tests have revealed a pretty much neutral PH.
In the case of wild caught fish, I would agree with keeping the water as close to natural as possible.
In the case of "store bought" fish, neutral PH seems to be the norm. for all fresh water types.
My 125g used to be african only. For the first year, I was alwys adding "stuff" to it to make it hard and high PH. Supposedly what they require. The second year, I quit adding anything to the water except conditioner, and the fish have continued to thrive.
Now, not only do I have a mixed tank, (flame me if you feel the need, I can take it) with africans, s/a, trop., etc., I have a much more peacful tank.
Mbuna africans are nasty little buggers at times, but blue and gold gourami's can and do back them down.
Sorry for the length of post, and maybe I just got lucky with my setup, but It can be done with no ill effects.
I've bought numerous fish (except Discus) from all sorts of places. i.e. "chain" pet stores, local fish shops, and even private breeders, and have always taken a sample of the bag water they come in.
I seems to me that the type of fish and the water parameters it "needs" don't make an ounce of difference.
By that I mean that "almost" all tests have revealed a pretty much neutral PH.
In the case of wild caught fish, I would agree with keeping the water as close to natural as possible.
In the case of "store bought" fish, neutral PH seems to be the norm. for all fresh water types.
My 125g used to be african only. For the first year, I was alwys adding "stuff" to it to make it hard and high PH. Supposedly what they require. The second year, I quit adding anything to the water except conditioner, and the fish have continued to thrive.
Now, not only do I have a mixed tank, (flame me if you feel the need, I can take it) with africans, s/a, trop., etc., I have a much more peacful tank.
Mbuna africans are nasty little buggers at times, but blue and gold gourami's can and do back them down.
Sorry for the length of post, and maybe I just got lucky with my setup, but It can be done with no ill effects.
Ok, so I'm interested, and I'm sure you CAN go "on and on", but surely it isn't necessary for you to quote ppm for every dissolved mineral in the water of a fish's native home? If everyone were held to that criteria, then surely the hobby couldn't exist! If you feel the need, however, I have an MA in chemistry, so have at it. Given a pH right around 7 (meaning 6.8 to 7.2 let's say), given levels of ammonia, nitrites, nitrates that are low enough as to not be a problem for any kind of fish that isn't half dead already, what, exactly, is the difference in the water requirements of clowns versus the cichlids in my tanks?
You imply that the requirements are similar for Discus, which, I believe, are low pH and very clean water, and you imply that the conditions I have do not "please" the clowns. I guess I should point out that "requirements" is not the same thing as "optimum conditions", but even so, what form would that displeasure take? Given that poor water conditions for discus have obvious ramifications that are easily observed, and given clowns' propensity for ick infections, wouldn't that be a likely consequence? Or maybe lethargy, loss of appetite? But my clowns are fat, eat like hogs, swim actively, come to my hand for food, play in the spray from the cannister bar, etc. If they're not "pleased", then I confess that I'm unsure how to make them any happier. It's clear to me, if not to you, that I'm meeting their "requirements".
All I can say is that I cared enough to research the needs of all the fish I bought BEFORE I bought them. I can only go by the information that was available to me online and in the (many) books I took out of the library. If you have additional/better information, then you owe it to the hobby to rectify the numerous errors in the literature that I perused. You can start by explaining clearly what you feel are the water REQUIREMENTS of clowns versus the OPTIMAL water conditions for clowns. My guess is that I will have to grant you that the conditions in my tank are not OPTIMAL, but I think you're going to have a hard time establishing that they do not meet the REQUIREMENTS of the fish. In any event, I'm willing to be educated, so I'd appreciate considerably more elaboration on this point. Thanks in advance.
You imply that the requirements are similar for Discus, which, I believe, are low pH and very clean water, and you imply that the conditions I have do not "please" the clowns. I guess I should point out that "requirements" is not the same thing as "optimum conditions", but even so, what form would that displeasure take? Given that poor water conditions for discus have obvious ramifications that are easily observed, and given clowns' propensity for ick infections, wouldn't that be a likely consequence? Or maybe lethargy, loss of appetite? But my clowns are fat, eat like hogs, swim actively, come to my hand for food, play in the spray from the cannister bar, etc. If they're not "pleased", then I confess that I'm unsure how to make them any happier. It's clear to me, if not to you, that I'm meeting their "requirements".
All I can say is that I cared enough to research the needs of all the fish I bought BEFORE I bought them. I can only go by the information that was available to me online and in the (many) books I took out of the library. If you have additional/better information, then you owe it to the hobby to rectify the numerous errors in the literature that I perused. You can start by explaining clearly what you feel are the water REQUIREMENTS of clowns versus the OPTIMAL water conditions for clowns. My guess is that I will have to grant you that the conditions in my tank are not OPTIMAL, but I think you're going to have a hard time establishing that they do not meet the REQUIREMENTS of the fish. In any event, I'm willing to be educated, so I'd appreciate considerably more elaboration on this point. Thanks in advance.
By "except Discus", I meant that I've never kept discus, or clown loaches for that matter. Maybe I should rephrase and say "Of all the fish I've had, which is by no means all there IS to have."homer3d455840 said:
In my tests (limited though they may be, and most assuredly not scientific or controlled), I've found all these water additives to be nothing more than so much rather expensive snake oil.
That's not to say that they don't do .......... something......... to the water,
I've just not seen any difference whatsoever between using it and not.
Granted, if you put a clown loach in a hard alkaline african tank, if the water shock does not kill it, the cichlids might.
BUT, on the other hand, how do shops keep these fish alive long enough to sell if they are so sensitive to the water conditions? I've seen many tanks at shops with clowns in with africans. How does that work ??
Seems to me, based on your point of view, that the clowns or the africans should be dead, depending on if the were in a tank of clown water or african water. Do you really think that a store that cuts every possible corner to make a profit is going to spend the time, material money, and labor costs to have each tank specifically set up for the "pristine conditions" of each resident of said tanks.
Clowns may very well be all wild caught (I'll give you that simply because I don't know) as well as many others, but after they get caught, what kind of water you reckon they get splashed into. "Natural" environment water?
I really doubt it.
I guess to make a long story short, I think it's unfair to flame someone about keeping either the "wrong" types of fish together, or keeping certain fish in the "wrong" type of water.
I mean, unless you personally catch the animal in it's native habitat, you are most likely going to get an animal that's been kept in the "wrong" environment before it came to you.
And as a last remark, I guess we are all (stores and hobbyists alike) selfish and only have our interests in mind instead of the animals we keep.
WITH the exception of you of course.
I think you would be surprised at the lengths I go to take care of my fish. "Wrong" water and "wrong" fish together not withstanding.
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Very good point.rmcder said:
:clap: I guess if nobody is ever able to captive breed them, when they are all gone the only thing to blame will be humans. After all if we JUST would have either NOT used them as an ornamental fish for our selfish pleasure, or JUST kept them in the right conditions, maybe they would have bred for us.
Hey homer3d455840 !!!!
Got any clown loach fry for sale???? ...........What do you mean no !!
You got them in the right water don't you ??
You got them with the right tankmates don't you ??? :laugh: :laugh:
