Cichlids and barbs

[ercnan]

Not only that they are also considered a delicacy to eat. So they are heavily fished as a food source as well. :sad:

I can think of all kinds of fish (yes, even the one's we selfishly keep in our tanks for pleasure) that are heavily fished as a food source.

Forgive me, but I thought your arguement was based on the "proper" husbandry of not only clown loaches, but all ornamental fish in general,
Not the fact that people eat them so much as how people keep them

Why is it sad that people eat clowns ? Is that same sympathy directed at cattle, hogs, fowl, carrots, seafood, bugs, deer, elk, turtles, etc. ?

 

[H3D]

rmcder your clown loaches look great! I never implied that you were not "pleasing" your clowns or doing anything to harm them. I said that clown loaches and African cichlids will do best in different aquarium setups. True this is different than just what is required to keep them alive. However when not kept in "optimum conditions" clown loaches tend not to grow to their full size and live shorter lives. Some consider it improper to do anything that will result in the stunting and or shortening the lives of their fish. You are correct that there has been very little research done about clown loaches and much of the available information is incorrect. I have found that the best information available can be found from long time clown loach keepers. If you would actually like some more information about clown loaces I would be happy share with you what I can.

 

[H3D]

Ercnan I never intended to flame or anger anyone. I was just saying that clown loaches are not the best canidate to be kept with African cichlids. I agree that chemicals should not be used to change water conditions however you can naturally lower pH using peat which is quite effective. You are correct in pointing out that the agression of African cichlids is one reason the shy clown loach may do better in a different setup. However as the clown grows it will not tolerate the agression and may harm or even kill the cichlids. You may not know this but many clown loaches do not survive the capture/ship/purchase process. It is thought by many that when clown loaches are kept in conditions that are less than ideal they becomse stunted and or die early. It is entirely up to you if you want your clown loach to live 5 or 25 years. I was just pointing out that the practice of keeping clowns loaches and African cichlids is not ideal for either species.

P.S. I am sad for the clown loaches because I do not want them to become endangered, which as of now it is not.

 

[ercnan]

homer3d455840.
O.K. I'll go along with most of that, and may need to even apologize for being (sounding) a little too harsh.
But, If you are talking about fish being kept in ideal conditions to keep them from becoming stunted or being subjected to an early death, I would think the best answer for that would be to leave them (and all other fish for that matter) in the natural environment thay came from.
No matter how much we as fish keepers try, No matter how much high tech. (or low) equipment is/becomes available, No matter how much decor (live or fake) we add to our boxes, No matter how many different chemicals are marketed to each niche to make the water more natural, we will never be able to duplicate the "ideal" conditions for our charges. Aquariums are, in and of themselves, not natural habitats for fish. They are at best, poor interpretations of the real thing based on how we as humans, in our infinite, superior wisdom and knowledge see it.
We forget that the animals we keep have been around far longer than we have been, and will probably be around far longer than us, provided we don't kill them all before we kill ourselves.

 

[H3D]

ercnan that is so true. It is just my philosophy to do the best I can for my fish. One thing is for certain my fish are better off in my tanks than were I bought them from.

 

[ercnan]

An admirable philosophy that I think most of us share.
Agreed that your fish are better off in your tank/s than where they came from (unless you actually caught them in the wild).
We do the best we can, but it's far from ideal.

 

[rmcder]

rmcder your clown loaches look great!

Thank you.

I never implied that you were not "pleasing" your clowns or doing anything to harm them.

Seemed to me as if that was exactly what you were implying.

I said that clown loaches and African cichlids will do best in different aquarium setups.

Not to argue, but unless my memory is failing to a greater extent than usual, you didn't say this at all, and that would be irrelevant anyway since I don't have ANY Africans in that tank. If I HAD, and the tank contained high pH water, then your response would have been appropriate.

If you would actually like some more information about clown loaces I would be happy share with you what I can.

I've read A LOT about my fish, and the reason is that I am interested in their welfare. I would be happy to know in what areas that literature was in error regarding clown loaches.

Ok.. Deep breath; stepping back... Clearly you are an advocate for clown loaches, and that's wonderful as they are very appealing fish. This kind of conversation (long range and impersonal) lends itself to misunderstandings, and it's clear that you have come to realize that your posts were viewed as "flaming" by others, hence the responses you received. It also seems clear that you didn't intend flaming, so I'll chalk it up to a misunderstanding.

Can I safely assume, then, that given the water conditions in my tank (clean water, pH typically between 6.8 and 7) that you would agree that the water requirements of the clown loaches in the tank are being (reasonably) met? And we both agree that pH 8 water is really not the best environment for clown loaches? So what should we know about clowns that isn't in the literature or is incorrect in the literature? And unless you are from Indonesia, how do you know?

 

[rmcder]

Very good point. :clap:
I guess if nobody is ever able to captive breed them, when they are all gone the only thing to blame will be humans. After all if we JUST would have either NOT used them as an ornamental fish for our selfish pleasure, or JUST kept them in the right conditions, maybe they would have bred for us.

The prevailing theory is that they don't live long enough in captivity to become mature enough to breed. In the wild, they reach 12" (more?), so the typical 3-4" clown is a youngster. Given all that, and given that they are used as food as well, when they DO breed, they must breed like rabbits!

 

[coupedefleur]

Some clown loaches are farmed in Thailand. They typically use hormones to stimulate breeding. If you're trying to breed them, perhaps having a pregnant woman pee in their water would help!?! The spawning trigger could be a special type of fruit or seed that falls in the water at a certain time.

I've read that the African rift lakes have a very stable environment, but most fish that live in rivers, ponds, shallow lakes, and puddles must adapt to changes in their environment. A change in water type is sometimes the signal that it's time to breed- just think of all the water that falls from the sky during rainy season! Most of the time, it's absurd to talk about tenths of ph (esp when you're near 7- it's a log. scale), or .00001 ppm of hardness.

 

[H3D]

Not to argue, but unless my memory is failing to a greater extent than usual, you didn't say this at all, and that would be irrelevant anyway since I don't have ANY Africans in that tank. If I HAD, and the tank contained high pH water, then your response would have been appropriate.

My original post was in response to Tommy Gun's advice that you can keep cichlids in a tank with other fish if they share water requirements. I was pointing out that the African cichlids and clown loaches in "his" tank do not. I was then childishly attacked by others. In every post I made, I cleary stated I was talking about Afican cihlids. I never once made a reference to your tank or the way you took care of their fish[except for the crack about not knowing your pH :joke:].

I would be happy to know in what areas that literature was in error regarding clown loaches.

How about the size they grow to. Their lifespan. Tank size they should be kept in. The amount and frequency of water changes that should be done.

Can I safely assume, then, that given the water conditions in my tank (clean water, pH typically between 6.8 and 7) that you would agree that the water requirements of the clown loaches in the tank are being (reasonably) met?

Once again I never said there was anything wrong with your tank. Your pH seems OK. I could not tell you anything else because I do not know the size of your tank, the number of fish in it, how much you feed, or frequency of water changes. Your clowns are nice and fat...that is a good sign.