Fishless Cycle in a Rut?
- Thread starter aklaum
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See that's the confusing part that seems to vary from article to article on Fishless Cycling.
Chris Cow's original article states the following:
"Add ammonia to the tank initially to obtain a reading on your ammonia kit of ~5 ppm. Record the amount of ammonia that this took, then add that amount daily until the nitrite spikes"
Given how long it takes for the ammonia eating bacteria to get up to speed, it seems like this would be a massive amount of ammonia initially. In this case it would make sense to halve it later.
Other articles go for a different tactic in which you bring the tank to 5ppm of ammonia and then wait until it goes back down to zero. Then add enough to take it back up to 5ppm. They say to repeat this process all the way through to the end even when nitrites appear. This is the process I am currently in the middle of.
These are drastically different methods. Chris Cow's method puts a massive amount of ammonia into the tank at once compared to the second method. It would suggest that you would have to cut back the ammonia once nitrites appear because you would want a certain amount of dieback of the ammonia bacteria colony to make way for the nitrite eating bacteria (perhaps?)
Above daveedka makes a powerful statement:
"And if your tank can consume 5 ppm ammonia and the nitrite it produces in 24 hours or less it will have enough bacteria to handle a full stock load at once."
That seems to be what ideally you would go for and your reward for looking at an empty tank for a month (plus the satisfaction that you have not made any "hardy" fish suffer through a tank cycle). So unless I am dosing ammonia at a level of 5ppm for the whole cycle how can I reach this full stock load nirvana?
Another way I think about it is that I have grown a certain size colony of bacteria based on a level of 5ppm. If I suddenly drop it to 2ppm won't half of the colony die? Is it this cut and dry or am I missing something?
doughsing, I'm curious which method you used and whether or not you fully stocked your tank once the cycle was complete?
Chris Cow's original article states the following:
"Add ammonia to the tank initially to obtain a reading on your ammonia kit of ~5 ppm. Record the amount of ammonia that this took, then add that amount daily until the nitrite spikes"
Given how long it takes for the ammonia eating bacteria to get up to speed, it seems like this would be a massive amount of ammonia initially. In this case it would make sense to halve it later.
Other articles go for a different tactic in which you bring the tank to 5ppm of ammonia and then wait until it goes back down to zero. Then add enough to take it back up to 5ppm. They say to repeat this process all the way through to the end even when nitrites appear. This is the process I am currently in the middle of.
These are drastically different methods. Chris Cow's method puts a massive amount of ammonia into the tank at once compared to the second method. It would suggest that you would have to cut back the ammonia once nitrites appear because you would want a certain amount of dieback of the ammonia bacteria colony to make way for the nitrite eating bacteria (perhaps?)
Above daveedka makes a powerful statement:
"And if your tank can consume 5 ppm ammonia and the nitrite it produces in 24 hours or less it will have enough bacteria to handle a full stock load at once."
That seems to be what ideally you would go for and your reward for looking at an empty tank for a month (plus the satisfaction that you have not made any "hardy" fish suffer through a tank cycle). So unless I am dosing ammonia at a level of 5ppm for the whole cycle how can I reach this full stock load nirvana?
Another way I think about it is that I have grown a certain size colony of bacteria based on a level of 5ppm. If I suddenly drop it to 2ppm won't half of the colony die? Is it this cut and dry or am I missing something?
doughsing, I'm curious which method you used and whether or not you fully stocked your tank once the cycle was complete?
Chris changed the instruction to cut the ammonia titer in half after the nitrites start appearing. There is no functional fish load that will produce an ammonia titer of 3ppm in 24 hours, once nitrites appear, you do not need 5ppm, 3 is plenty.
There is also no point in forcing the ammonia to zero out during the cycle. If it goes to zero after 24 hours, fine, bring it back to 3ppm. You want to keep the ammonia oxidizers well fed, first to support the maximum needed colony, and second to continue steady production of nitrite to feed those bacteria.
You may not be quite clear on the difference in 5ppm and 3 ppm. For bacteria, that is one colony doubling or a bit less. If x bacteria can oxidize 3ppm in 24 hours, 2x bacteria could oxidize 6ppm in the same 24 hours. Bacterial colonies are not steady-state. They are constantly dividing, some lose attachment and are lost, others have both daughter cells stay in place and metabolize. The colonies are highly dynamic, constantly responding to the presence (or absence) of their needs - food, oxygen, and attachment.
One of those needs is bicarbonate. To the biochemists, it takes two milliequvalents of bicarb utilized for every milliequivalent of ammonia oxidized to nitrate. Normal tank processes use up KH/alkalinity.
HTH
There is also no point in forcing the ammonia to zero out during the cycle. If it goes to zero after 24 hours, fine, bring it back to 3ppm. You want to keep the ammonia oxidizers well fed, first to support the maximum needed colony, and second to continue steady production of nitrite to feed those bacteria.
You may not be quite clear on the difference in 5ppm and 3 ppm. For bacteria, that is one colony doubling or a bit less. If x bacteria can oxidize 3ppm in 24 hours, 2x bacteria could oxidize 6ppm in the same 24 hours. Bacterial colonies are not steady-state. They are constantly dividing, some lose attachment and are lost, others have both daughter cells stay in place and metabolize. The colonies are highly dynamic, constantly responding to the presence (or absence) of their needs - food, oxygen, and attachment.
One of those needs is bicarbonate. To the biochemists, it takes two milliequvalents of bicarb utilized for every milliequivalent of ammonia oxidized to nitrate. Normal tank processes use up KH/alkalinity.
HTH
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I halved the dose of ammonia as soon as the nitrite concentration in the tank registered on the test kit. My cycle just finished 2 weeks ago and I am slowly adding livestock because I'm still deciding over what the final list will be.
P.S. Listen to RTR, he knows what he's saying/doing.
P.S. Listen to RTR, he knows what he's saying/doing.
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RTR,
It is getting a little late so maybe I am not processing what you are saying as effectively as I could. For this I apologize.
You made a powerful statement:
"There is no functional fish load that will produce an ammonia titer of 3ppm in 24 hours, once nitrites appear, you do not need 5ppm, 3 is plenty."
So why ever try to get to 5ppm in a fishless cycle? Sounds like one should go for 3ppm and just stay at 3ppm for the duration. Would this be true?
I'm trying to remember high school biology for the bacteria comments. So if it were physically possible to maintain a constant ammonia, oxygen and bicarbonate level and physical growth space was not a factor, the colony would continue to grow forever right? However, by cycling the ammonia variable (i.e. taking it to a certain level and then letting that amount get consumed) I am keeping a colony at roughly the same density? capacity? size?. That is one that can comfortably eat, divide, detach, die, etc. at that level of food availability.
I'm not sure what you mean by "forcing the ammonia to zero out". Do you just mean letting it drop back to zero? If you don't let it get back to zero (or nearly so) how do you scientifically keep it at a certain 3ppm level?
For instance, let's say I know that it takes 3 drops of my particular household ammonia from my particular dropper to make 1 gallon of water hit 1ppm of ammonia concentration. So that means it would take 162 drops to make my 18 gallons of water hit 3ppm. So great, I add my 162 drops and get a 3ppm reading from my test kit. So 12 hours later what do I do? Do I just take a reading and recalculate how many drops I should add to get back to 3ppm or do I wait for a reading of 0ppm and add another round of 162 drops?
It is getting a little late so maybe I am not processing what you are saying as effectively as I could. For this I apologize.
You made a powerful statement:
"There is no functional fish load that will produce an ammonia titer of 3ppm in 24 hours, once nitrites appear, you do not need 5ppm, 3 is plenty."
So why ever try to get to 5ppm in a fishless cycle? Sounds like one should go for 3ppm and just stay at 3ppm for the duration. Would this be true?
I'm trying to remember high school biology for the bacteria comments. So if it were physically possible to maintain a constant ammonia, oxygen and bicarbonate level and physical growth space was not a factor, the colony would continue to grow forever right? However, by cycling the ammonia variable (i.e. taking it to a certain level and then letting that amount get consumed) I am keeping a colony at roughly the same density? capacity? size?. That is one that can comfortably eat, divide, detach, die, etc. at that level of food availability.
I'm not sure what you mean by "forcing the ammonia to zero out". Do you just mean letting it drop back to zero? If you don't let it get back to zero (or nearly so) how do you scientifically keep it at a certain 3ppm level?
For instance, let's say I know that it takes 3 drops of my particular household ammonia from my particular dropper to make 1 gallon of water hit 1ppm of ammonia concentration. So that means it would take 162 drops to make my 18 gallons of water hit 3ppm. So great, I add my 162 drops and get a 3ppm reading from my test kit. So 12 hours later what do I do? Do I just take a reading and recalculate how many drops I should add to get back to 3ppm or do I wait for a reading of 0ppm and add another round of 162 drops?
I'm Not RTR (by a long shot) but might be able to help with some points.
The last thing is that if your tap is low KH, You will definately want to add some carbonate. During a fishless baking soda is the easy route. IME 1 teaspoon of baking soda will raise 30gallons of water 1 dKH (17.9 ppm) I would highly reccomend a minimum KH of about 3 dKH (54 ppm) for fishless cycleing
dave
In essence, the higher titer forces more multiplication. While at the same time a colony that size can live on 3 ppm and be maintained. Once you have the colony in place it takes less ammonia to maintain them than it did to force colony growth. Additionally, the dosage needed to be successfull is not really perfectly critical. Some variation doesn't usually hurt. In other words the difference between 3 and 5 ppm will not be much in the big picture.
Rather than waiting for the ammonia to get to zero, test and dose back up to the level you want. In other words if you dosed to 5 ppm, the next day the tank tested at 2 ppm then add 3 ppm to bring the total back to 5 ppm. If The tank zero's out in 24 hours that is fine, but you do not have to wait for it to 0 out before dosing again. Your last paragraph describes it correctly. All you need to decide is your high point and then dose to that level daily.
The last thing is that if your tap is low KH, You will definately want to add some carbonate. During a fishless baking soda is the easy route. IME 1 teaspoon of baking soda will raise 30gallons of water 1 dKH (17.9 ppm) I would highly reccomend a minimum KH of about 3 dKH (54 ppm) for fishless cycleing
dave
Dave has covered it all. Yes, "zeroing out" was a ref to allowing it to drop to zero. Keep the titer at whatever level you elect at least daily. If you leave it a zero/undetectable for longer than that, you will redice the multiplication/division rate of the bacteria - they divide fastest in response to unoxidized ammonia, or to unoxidized nitrite, depending on what stage of the cycle you are in. If the bacteria oxidizing ammonia are at mature colony size, you want to hold them there, or at least within one colony division of being there (the 3-5 ppm bit).
There was a post suggesting slow fish addition after fishless. To me this defeats the purpose of fishless. You have built a colony capable of supporting full tank capacity of fish. Then if you do not use it, the colony will die back (read as: reproduce more slowly if at all, dead/dying bacteria will not be replaced as there is no ammonia or nitrite to feed them). That is defeating the purpose of the process to me.
There was a post suggesting slow fish addition after fishless. To me this defeats the purpose of fishless. You have built a colony capable of supporting full tank capacity of fish. Then if you do not use it, the colony will die back (read as: reproduce more slowly if at all, dead/dying bacteria will not be replaced as there is no ammonia or nitrite to feed them). That is defeating the purpose of the process to me.
I once asked a question regarding this but I forget if it got answered or not.RTR said:
How does the size of the fish impact this? Let's say I want to keep Oscars in a 135g aquarium. I do a fishless cycle on the aquarium and it takes a month. Cool. Now, I'm ready to add the fish. I know the Oscars will grow large but I want to buy "baby" Oscars and watch them grow.
How will this impact the bacteria colony any differently than adding fish gradually? I assume if I added adult Oscars, they would produce enough waste to keep the colony alive and well or at least minimize the die-off, right?
Peace...
The reason for fishless cycling is to produce a bacteria colony capable of consuming more wastes than what would be produced after you fully stocked the tank. I have yet to hear of a situation (normal stockload not overstocked to the extreme) where fish will produce 5 ppm of ammonia in one day. This allows you to fully stock the tank and even have some biofilter dieoff as it adjusts to the waste production of the fish. If you added the baby oscars, as they mature they will produce more wastes but the biofilter is capable of doubling its consumption capacity every 24 hours so it will quickly compensate. That is why mini-cycles when you add more fish to the tank are very short lasting maybe one week at most.
