Important News about Transporting CO2 Tanks

[Bk718]

I know its kind of late but i might as well throw my 2 cents in..

i work in the gas cylinders dept at my university and yes, it is illegal to transport cylinders with anything attached to them, or even ride in elevators when transporting them up and down different floors.

Sorry but that is baloney..
Working in a hospital we deal with pressurized gas tanks on the daily basis, we transport patients in elevators while ventilating them using a O2 gas tank that has a regulator on and all. The only thing is one has to make sure it is properly secured to the chair/bed (before they would just place the cylinder between the patients legs.. soon after a few incidents it became a violation)

Now as far as transporting pressurized gas tanks in the car. As long as it is a non flammable gas you can have it inside the cab, as long as its secured. Once again from personal experience, you have elderly who need constant source of O2 gas, for that they use an E size cylinder which they can take anywhere they go (including inside a car).

Now about transporting gas cylinders from one room/floor to the next. In hospitals atleast, one can transport the cylinder with a regulator still on as long as it is chained in a stand/trolly that will prevent it from tipping over/getting loose.

It is very hard to damage the stem of a cylinder (possible but difficult). If one does damage the regulator while it is on a tank that is open, depending on the damage and the regulator, it will just vent off the gas without it going out of control. Many regulators and gas cylinders(especially cylinders) have pressure release valves along with other safety valves that will vent the gas to prevent any injury/damage.

Mythbusters did show that a cylinder that has its stem damaged will fly through walls, but look what they did, they severed the stem like a guillotine.

:huh:

 

[dundadundun]

good call, bk.

Mythbusters did show that a cylinder that has its stem damaged will fly through walls, but look what they did, they severed the stem like a guillotine.

:huh:

and provided a guidance rail to fix a trajectory and focus the energy. without that straight trajectory, the energy being controlled/focused and the sheer mass of the tank they used, that outcome would be impossible. :thumbsup:

 

[Bk718]

good call, bk.


and provided a guidance rail to fix a trajectory and focus the energy. without that straight trajectory, the energy being controlled/focused and the sheer mass of the tank they used, that outcome would be impossible. :thumbsup:

ohhhh it will be possible.. even with a smaller cylinder, the damage could be devastating.

As someone said before the planets will align and out of sheer luck the damage could fall upon your hands.. Safety is first..

 

[coach_z]

An anonymous police officer friend told me the other day that, "to my knowledge, it is not illegal to do this." So, er on the side of caution.

 

[dundadundun]

ohhhh it will be possible.. even with a smaller cylinder, the damage could be devastating.

As someone said before the planets will align and out of sheer luck the damage could fall upon your hands.. Safety is first..

E=mc^2

so... given a tank with half the weight... half the propellant... half the length... and the same broken regulator... assuming simple numbers and inserting them for illustrative purposes...

we'll say tank a's stats all equal 4 (our tank that broke the wall)
we'll say tank b's stats all equal 2 (one with less mass, propellant, etc.)
the idea here is to illustrate a tank at half the size approximately. about half that height is a pretty common size, i'm sure many of us have worked with.

energy equals;
tank a... 4*4^2 - 64lbs of pressure on impact
tank b... 2*2^2 - 8lbs of pressure on impact
this illustrates that to have the same force per area... if you half the size of the tank... the size of the impact point would have to be 1/8 of that of the larger tank. as far as i know there are no tanks that follow that formula if you start out with a large steel cylinder. matching pounds per square inches on impact would be literally impossible.

tank b would not break both walls, therefore the outcome would be different. to further exacerbate the issue... the tanks we'll be carrying around will be well more than the difference i'm illustrating from the one the mythbusters used. not only that, but a 4 degree bend in the propellant force and the velocity no longer increases somewhat linear. as a matter of fact, once the cylinder starts spinning the propellant will only increase rpm's, not velocity.

now... just to be a stickler... one person could easily put their foot on the bottom of one of those cylinders and hold it in place with little to no effort while another person initiates the guillotine on the regulator. if the entire top of the cylinder were sheered off that would most likely be a different situation. however... with less than an inch for the pressure to release from, the velocity/force provided by our unguided missiles only slowly increases throughout the distance of travel when there are no sudden, drastic changes in trajectory. for the tank to be able to break that wall, the kinetic energy with said tank would have to be released in such a way that it is effectively increasing the velocity of said tank until it reaches the speed/force it needs to break the wall in front of it. if someone were to say trip over the tank sending it off of it's fixed axis/trajectory, that energy would be released in a different direction thus effectively working against itself to diminish whatever energy is already in motion.

while i do agree that we should take every precaution and transport our potentially explosive devices carefully, i will have to respectfully disagree that a different size tank and/or under different circumstances will produce the same outcome. actually... the point in having them standing during transport is to provide a sufficient backstop to keep them from being potential projectiles. there are no provisions/guide rules that say what a sufficient backdrop need be other than the tank needs to be standing. the reasoning for that, i assume has something to do with the fact that - without that tank already being in motion, releasing all the gas in a cylinder will not provide enough pressure to damage even the weakest of all vehicle floor boards. i can kick a deeper dent in a floorboard than 80 cylinders who suddenly lose their regulators can make collectively... because i will make a dent... but they won't.

i do understand murphy's law... and believe in it whole heartedly... but reality is what it is and 2 tanks in 2 different situations will indeed provide for 2 different outcomes.

 

[dundadundun]

we need to stop thinking guided missile and start thinking split seem (to which there is no protection afaik), regulator projectiles, escaping gases in small compartments, etc.. those are real hazards when compared to our missile theories.

 

[aman74]

Federal law makes it illegal to transport ANY charged compressed gas in a passenger car, or any compressed gas with regulator intact during transport. You are also required to placard the vehicle according to the container contents.

Yeah, I know nobody does it or takes it serious but it is the law. I often refill my oxy-acet or argon tanks all the time and never placard. Same thing with my 75/25 tanks. (75% CO2/25% argon).

If that's correct, the way it's worded it's illegal even without the regulator.

honestly, i never thought i'd have this conversation with all the tanks i've seen blow over time.

I would think that would be a reason to think you would have the conversation?

Why have you seen so many blow?

Has this been reported much with aquarium hobbiests?

 

[dundadundun]

If that's correct, the way it's worded it's illegal even without the regulator.

notice the .gov web link stating the federal law accordingly above... and the summary.

I would think that would be a reason to think you would have the conversation?

Why have you seen so many blow?

Has this been reported much with aquarium hobbiests?

you are mis-understanding. the number of tanks of all different gases i've seen blow leads me to believe the chances of certain things happening are not what they would seem to be. simply because i've yet to see it happen... even anything similar.

i have seen hair spray, oxygen, whipped cream, acetylene, spray paint, propane, natural gas, co2, shaving cream, compressed air, helium, etc. tanks, valves, lines, etc. blow, leak, crack,... in many ways... in many situations... in several industries and homes... including construction, demolition, sweat soldering, steel work, being a lunatic, firebug teenager interested in combustion, explosions and implosions. not once have i seen one travel linearly propelling itself until all force is expelled with the exception of tossing compressed cans of flam-able liquids directly into a fire. even then, it's hit or miss. i dunno how i wound up seeing so much except to say... right place, wrong time, and i live in a town notoriously full of lunatics.

no... this would reported more in local bars than it ever would be with hobbyists. they'll have more tanks taking more punishment on a daily basis than almost any hobbyist, usually. they need them to power anything that comes out of a soda fountain. another place you'll find a lot of co2 cylinders... restaurants of all kinds. so kids and drunks get to maintain the same cylinders with very similar equipment on a daily basis throughout the world. if it were a serious issue to be concerned with (tanks blowing) it would have been all over the news in your recent recollection, likely.

heck... i've seen a 5# cylinder blow in the back of a pickup truck. we just turned back around and went to the beer distributor and re-filled it. no dents, no wild tank... just some hissing, rolling and a cold blanket.

 

[Bk718]

E=mc^2

so... given a tank with half the weight... half the propellant... half the length... and the same broken regulator... assuming simple numbers and inserting them for illustrative purposes...

we'll say tank a's stats all equal 4 (our tank that broke the wall)
we'll say tank b's stats all equal 2 (one with less mass, propellant, etc.)
the idea here is to illustrate a tank at half the size approximately. about half that height is a pretty common size, i'm sure many of us have worked with.

energy equals;
tank a... 4*4^2 - 64lbs of pressure on impact
tank b... 2*2^2 - 8lbs of pressure on impact
this illustrates that to have the same force per area... if you half the size of the tank... the size of the impact point would have to be 1/8 of that of the larger tank. as far as i know there are no tanks that follow that formula if you start out with a large steel cylinder. matching pounds per square inches on impact would be literally impossible.

tank b would not break both walls, therefore the outcome would be different. to further exacerbate the issue... the tanks we'll be carrying around will be well more than the difference i'm illustrating from the one the mythbusters used. not only that, but a 4 degree bend in the propellant force and the velocity no longer increases somewhat linear. as a matter of fact, once the cylinder starts spinning the propellant will only increase rpm's, not velocity.

now... just to be a stickler... one person could easily put their foot on the bottom of one of those cylinders and hold it in place with little to no effort while another person initiates the guillotine on the regulator. if the entire top of the cylinder were sheered off that would most likely be a different situation. however... with less than an inch for the pressure to release from, the velocity/force provided by our unguided missiles only slowly increases throughout the distance of travel when there are no sudden, drastic changes in trajectory. for the tank to be able to break that wall, the kinetic energy with said tank would have to be released in such a way that it is effectively increasing the velocity of said tank until it reaches the speed/force it needs to break the wall in front of it. if someone were to say trip over the tank sending it off of it's fixed axis/trajectory, that energy would be released in a different direction thus effectively working against itself to diminish whatever energy is already in motion.

while i do agree that we should take every precaution and transport our potentially explosive devices carefully, i will have to respectfully disagree that a different size tank and/or under different circumstances will produce the same outcome. actually... the point in having them standing during transport is to provide a sufficient backstop to keep them from being potential projectiles. there are no provisions/guide rules that say what a sufficient backdrop need be other than the tank needs to be standing. the reasoning for that, i assume has something to do with the fact that - without that tank already being in motion, releasing all the gas in a cylinder will not provide enough pressure to damage even the weakest of all vehicle floor boards. i can kick a deeper dent in a floorboard than 80 cylinders who suddenly lose their regulators can make collectively... because i will make a dent... but they won't.

i do understand murphy's law... and believe in it whole heartedly... but reality is what it is and 2 tanks in 2 different situations will indeed provide for 2 different outcomes.

Id hate to say this but you are wrong in about 3-5 ways in the above/below posts :lipssealedsmilie:

we need to stop thinking guided missile and start thinking split seem (to which there is no protection afaik), regulator projectiles, escaping gases in small compartments, etc.. those are real hazards when compared to our missile theories.

Gas cylinders, especially the compressed gas CO2/O2/NO2/He etc.. are made of SPUN steel/aluminum. Though thats the main reason behind it being spun, so there wouldnt be a seam/a weak spot in the tank to split.

 

[Bk718]

heck... i've seen a 5# cylinder blow in the back of a pickup truck. we just turned back around and went to the beer distributor and re-filled it. no dents, no wild tank... just some hissing, rolling and a cold blanket.

Theres a difference between a cylinders stem being severed and the cylinders valve releasing the gas due to pressure/temperature change....