Mystery Diesease Returns, Help NEEDED!!!

[BioHazard]

Mel and Cerianthus - I think we may have found our culprit..... Chilodonella.
It would explain a lot of things.
First- The sensitivity of the disease to salt.
Second- The symptoms; clamped fins, lethargy, rubbing surfaces, labored breathing, excessive mucus secreting, skin shedding and loss of appetite.
Third- Where it came from. Must have been present on the fish I got from TN.
Also, look at this pic that is supposed to be of a fish with Chilo...

Looks a LOT like what I have.


Okay, now how do I treat this? I have erythro, maracyn 1 and maracyn 2 on me. I can pick up something different tomorrow after work if I need to.

 

[mel_20_20]

I think those photos are excellent, and help us see the issue is parasitic.
The salt was helping. Antibiotics are not what you need, you need to get a med for parasites. Something like Mardel Coppersafe, or another good antiparasitic, and I'd think about possibly Maracyn II for secondary bacterial infection.

Maybe jinksie or others can offer input on advisability of adding antibiotic along with the antiparasitic; secondary bacterial infection is very often present in parasitic infections.

Check out the sticky at the top of this forum fo more info on Coppersafe, or Malachite green and some others that are suggested for Chilodenlla, which I think this may most likely be.

 

[mel_20_20]

Cerianthus has tons of experience, too, and may has treated Chilodonella before and may have success with a particular method.

 

[msjinkzd]

the recommended treatments are salt baths (concentrated) for mild cases (and dilution of tank water). The additional treatments are acriflavin (5ml/L), OR malachite green (6ml/100L), OR methylene blue (1ml/1L)

That info from Handbook of Fish Diseases by Dieter Untergasser

 

[Cerianthus]

the recommended treatments are salt baths (concentrated) for mild cases (and dilution of tank water). The additional treatments are acriflavin (5ml/L), OR malachite green (6ml/100L), OR methylene blue (1ml/1L)

That info from Handbook of Fish Diseases by Dieter Untergasser

Pretty good book for most common diseases on hobby level but I used tomostly depend on actual Fish Pathology Reasearch Data.

I encountered very similar/same symptoms with Discus imported from Bangkok on weekly basis. Usually right amt of salt for Discus did the trick w/o any med but never had a discus arrived with the symtoms. Always couples of days later, they tend to develop which lead to think why it was happening.

Eventually, I learned that w/ proper accllimation to Ideal Condition and proper WC (smaller WC but frequent and yes aged water def helped in great proportion) eliminated any need for any kind of treatment even salt.

"Healthy fish can fight off." Exposing fish to drastic changes are just another stress factor.

Yes, improper WC can have devastating effect on tank from time to time. One should never assume such possibility will not take place.

I dont have proplem with frequency of WC as I built river system to eliminate the need for pwc on some systems. This river systems with design variation requires large vats with filtration/circulation/heaters/water level sensors, etc.
I am more concerned with percentage changed at a time.

I have eliminated the need for med/treatment in many cases, including this parasite by establishing proper way of changing water thru experiences/experiments.

Hopefully simple salt treatment will eradicate this problem for good. Changing smaller amt of water at a time may assist also.

Just make sure to apply full amt/dosage when treating.

Too little will just weakened the potency of treatments down the road. Too much will off course may end up killing fish.

BTW, Stay away from Coppersafe. Didnt perform much at recommended doasage, IMO.
As far as Malachite Green, very potent for some species. I would be very careful with MG and leave it as last resort.

 

[XanAvaloni]

Mel, could you be so kind as to describe this "salt bath" procedure as you have found it to work best?

I see descriptions of 3%, 6% and 9% salt solutions, but it is unclear whether this is applied to the whole tank or if the affected fish(es) are to be netted out and treated in a smaller container of the salt water.

Or some combination of both: the tank treated to, say, 3% to deal with free-floating parasites or those afflicting other fish which aren't yet showing symptoms, AND the worst-affected fish given the higher dose teatment. Or what. Or for how long in either case.

I have not (despite being in Tennessee) ever had an outbreak of anything worse than ich, and that fairly mild and quickly cleared up....but it would be helpful to know what to do in case Something Awful were to strike.

 

[msjinkzd]

Pretty good book for most common diseases on hobby level but I used tomostly depend on actual Fish Pathology Reasearch Data.

I encountered very similar/same symptoms with Discus imported from Bangkok on weekly basis. Usually right amt of salt for Discus did the trick w/o any med but never had a discus arrived with the symtoms. Always couples of days later, they tend to develop which lead to think why it was happening.

Eventually, I learned that w/ proper accllimation to Ideal Condition and proper WC (smaller WC but frequent and yes aged water def helped in great proportion) eliminated any need for any kind of treatment even salt.

"Healthy fish can fight off." Exposing fish to drastic changes are just another stress factor.

Yes, improper WC can have devastating effect on tank from time to time. One should never assume such possibility will not take place.

I have eliminated the need for med/treatment in many cases, including this parasite by establishing proper way of changing water thru experiences/experiments.

Hopefully simple salt treatment will eradicate this problem for good. Changing smaller amt of water at a time may assist also.

Just make sure to apply full amt/dosage when treating.

Too little will just weakened the potency of treatments. Too much will off course may end up killing fish.

Prevention next time will work, not in this case as its existing and recurring. The case still seems mild so salt should work. That being said, the protozoa doubles every time it splits so dilution helps to reduce the amount of protoza in the tank available to infect the fish. Salt is the recommend treatment for mild cases at a dosage of 15-20g for each liter for 10 minutes or until the fish roll over.

Bio, when you come visit, I can show you the microscopic pics provided if you should want to prepare slides.

 

[Cerianthus]

I thought I said to use the salt as treatment but this is a good time to learn/experiemnts new technique as it is happening.
Think about it. How do you think we come up with proper recommendation/treatments/dosage/Prevention? When the fish are healthy???
No, we experiment when fish are sick, sometimes by inducing sickness!!!

Rather recommend adding salt to tank than short term bath.

BTW, diagnosis was educated guess . It could be others and can only be correctly id under microscopic examination.

 

[stephcps]

I have luck with salt baths to treat external parasites in discus. It is a little stressful...both for you and the fish. But, in my limited experience I would rather do that than medications. It usually works well from my experience and what I have read.

 

[BioHazard]

Do malachite green or methylene blue affect the biofilter?