Mystery Diesease Returns, Help NEEDED!!!

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DrNo

Overworked Member...
Jul 9, 2008
2,020
1
0
...

Anna, I'm wondering if Dr. Vader (No) is on to something re: parasites. He mentioned that the pics made him think of that. I wonder if this could be excessive slime coming off the fish due to a parasitic infestation. The salt may have had an inhibitory effect on the parasites, but not killed them...
Anna, I am very sorry to hear you're still fighting this; I know how frustrating these situations can be. Here's the bottom line, IMO:

1) I hate to have been "right" but in looking at your new, sharp photos, you have to presume a parasite. As Mel mentioned, you could have been seeing much slime coat excretion which has complicated the diagnosis to this point. Please don't beat yourself up over this; we ALL have our learning experiences, disasters, and lessons. You've done a great job.

2) Chilodenella vs. Glossatella, etc. but frankly, its not important to nail this down exactly. Instead, you need to treat empirically for parasitic condition (presumed illness category). No more antibiotics unless we suspect secondary becterial infection later on (which is a distinct possbility in some of your photos).

3) Your specimens are, sadly, very ill and you should be prepared for their loss.

4) Salt will inhibit some of these parasitic conditions, and you have little to lose by continuing to salt dose the tank at this juncture. I wouldn't risk any additional salt bathes moving forward; hit the tank. Besides, you can safely assume your entire stock is contaminated so a hospital tank is redundant at this time. I'd dose at 2 tsp per gallon (dissolved before addiiton to tank), the standard Tx. regimen for Ich. However, don't expect this to make a significant impact at this stage of the disease.

5) As mel mentions, many aquarists empirically treat new stock with Praziquantel. If you can find it, use it per label. Or, check to see if you can find a product that contains Metronidazole (aka Metro). I swear by Seachem's AquaZole:

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/AquaZole.html

These will also spare your bacterial bed (you can see this is a strict requirement for the meds I use...)

Malachite Green and Meth Blue will work if you have no other options, but they are dicey and will absolutely discolor your silicone and decorations. Use all these meds with caution with inverts, especially Blue and Green despite any label safety indications.

EDIT: Just saw you've started Maclachite. Having started it, continue with it.

6) Keep up with daily water changes and replace salt/any meds. you use per volume of water removed and re-dose after the tank is refilled per label recommendation. Gravel vac and don't concentrate on feeding much until your fish take a turn for the better.

This is a good time to make my annual pitch for the Fish 1st Aid Kit: a basket of meds. to collect and store in-hand to use at the first sign of illness. Advantages include earlier treatment, less-scrambling when fish get ill, and access to meds. that in most cases are not commonly available at your LFS. My kit includes:

Salt (for Ich)
Aquazole
Kanaplex
Neoplex

The last three are almost impossible to find at your LFS, but can usually be ordered and will take weeks. Many can be ordered online (not from DFS but from BigAlsOnline). FYI these are some of the meds your LFS has in the back to treat their stock when things go very wrong (even though they will rarely admit to it).

Keep us updated and again, sorry for this turn.
 
Last edited:

BioHazard

Here and There
Mar 15, 2009
2,414
2
0
PA
Anna, I am very sorry to hear you're still fighting this; I know how frustrating these situations can be. Here's the bottom line, IMO:

1) I hate to have been "right" but in looking at your new, sharp photos, you have to presume a parasite. As Mel mentioned, you could have been seeing much slime coat excretion which has complicated the diagnosis to this point. Please don't beat yourself up over this; we ALL have our learning experiences, disasters, and lessons. You've done a great job.

2) Chilodenella vs. Glossatella, etc. but frankly, its not important to nail this down exactly. Instead, you need to treat empirically for parasitic condition (presumed illness category). No more antibiotics unless we suspect secondary becterial infection later on (which is a distinct possbility in some of your photos).

3) Your specimens are, sadly, very ill and you should be prepared for their loss.

4) Salt will inhibit some of these parasitic conditions, and you have little to lose by continuing to salt dose the tank at this juncture. I wouldn't risk any additional salt bathes moving forward; hit the tank. Besides, you can safely assume your entire stock is contaminated so a hospital tank is redundant at this time. I'd dose at 2 tsp per gallon (dissolved before addiiton to tank), the standard Tx. regimen for Ich. However, don't expect this to make a significant impact at this stage of the disease.

5) As mel mentions, many aquarists empirically treat new stock with Praziquantel. If you can find it, use it per label. Or, check to see if you can find a product that contains Metronidazole (aka Metro). I swear by Seachem's AquaZole:

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/AquaZole.html

These will also spare your bacterial bed (you can see this is a strict requirement for the meds I use...)

Malachite Green and Meth Blue will work if you have no other options, but they are dicey and will absolutely discolor your silicone and decorations. Use all these meds with caution with inverts, especially Blue and Green despite any label safety indications.

EDIT: Just saw you've started Maclachite. Having started it, continue with it.

6) Keep up with daily water changes and replace salt/any meds. you use per volume of water removed and re-dose after the tank is refilled per label recommendation. Gravel vac and don't concentrate on feeding much until your fish take a turn for the better.

This is a good time to make my annual pitch for the Fish 1st Aid Kit: a basket of meds. to collect and store in-hand to use at the first sign of illness. Advantages include earlier treatment, less-scrambling when fish get ill, and access to meds. that in most cases are not commonly available at your LFS. My kit includes:

Salt (for Ich)
Aquazole
Kanaplex
Neoplex

The last three are almost impossible to find at your LFS, but can usually be ordered and will take weeks. Many can be ordered online (not from DFS but from BigAlsOnline). FYI these are some of the meds your LFS has in the back to treat their stock when things go very wrong (even though they will rarely admit to it).

Keep us updated and again, sorry for this turn.
Thank you for your kind words. This is INCREDIBLY frustrating for me.
I don't hold out much hope for the two worst off fish right now. They are still both laying on their sides, breathing heavily.
Why do you say malachite green is dicey? Does it not always work, or do you mean that sometimes it does more damage than good? I'm not worried about the silicon, lol. 10 gals are easy enough to replace. I'm MUCH more worried about the fish. I think I'd be more worried if it was a larger tank, more expensive to replace.
Luckily, I already have all the inverts moved out of the tank, except the few remaining trumpet snails. I believe you that this is not invert friendly. After dosing it, my tank became a whirlwind of nematodes. You can see them in some of the pics.
I haven;t fed at all, but I plan to try again tomorrow, before a WC.

I think if the two die, and I am only left with 2 gudgeons, I am going to call it a day and try something else. I haven't been able to keep one alive yet, so perhaps it's a sign.
 

Reframer

AC Members
Feb 22, 2009
1,023
0
36
Minnesota
Ugh...
I don't see the point of stressing them out in qt or salt baths at this point, you need to treat the whole tank. Salt or MG, but the MG will stain.
You're a great fishmommy, most people wouldn't figure this out, what a great learning thread you've created for everyone.
Hey, you've got all those great 10g stocking ideas to fall back on if they don't pull through.
 

BioHazard

Here and There
Mar 15, 2009
2,414
2
0
PA
Ugh...
I don't see the point of stressing them out in qt or salt baths at this point, you need to treat the whole tank. Salt or MG, but the MG will stain.
You're a great fishmommy, most people wouldn't figure this out, what a great learning thread you've created for everyone.
Hey, you've got all those great 10g stocking ideas to fall back on if they don't pull through.
Already thinking about it.

If all but 2 die, I'm just going to call it a day and say that I was not meant to own peacock gudgeons.
I bought 3 from TN. 2 were killed by my dads betta before I realized what he was doing, one survived a few months before deciding that eating was for losers and starving itself to death.
Bought 3 from Mgamer, and got 2 as a gift from my friend in TN. Lost one so far, likely to loose 2 more, plus the clutch of wigglers I lost.
That's 8 gotten, half dead, 2 likely dead.

Ugh.

So, to remain positive in the face of death, I'm just thinking about trying something new. I've always wanted to breed something, so I'm thinking either killifish or shelldwellers.
 

mel_20_20

AC Members
Sep 1, 2008
3,300
1
38
Deep in the heart of texas
I'm so very sorry, Anna, for this ordeal and for the loss of your fish. You have worked tirelessly to try to save them. Please know that we all consider you to be an excellent fishkeeper, and we all agonized alongside you to try to figure this out.

We all share in your sadness at the loss of your beautiful little fish. We do get attached and care so much about the little creatures in our care.

I agree that this thread is one that we all should save in our files; files that we hold as reference material for future use.

Your photographs are extremely important from start to finish, really, in this thread, and though you have suffered loss, (hopefully some will make it), this thread will help others in this situation in the future, though I know that doesn't take away the pain you feel, I hope that knowledge can provide some comfort.

In fact, I wish we had a sticky in this forum with photographs of fish that are suffering from various illnesses, diseases, and conditions.

We learn from the appearance of our own fish as we deal with these things, going through successes and failures, and we learn from the threads of other AC members; from the detailed descriptions of the progression of illness and disease and sometimes the photos that are included.

We google desperately, sometimes, for images of fish with ulcers, pimples, lesions, signs and symptoms to try to find pictures to compare to our fish in the process of trying to come up with a diagnosis.

A Sticky with photographs of fish displaying physical signs, lesions, and characteristics of various pathological conditions would be so helpful to us all.

A pictorial catalogue, if you will, of fish diseases, hopefully of the quality of your photographs here, could be an invaluable tool as we struggle to try to save our aquatic friends when they are sick.

I'm sorry I haven't been able to be of more help with this illness in your poor little gudgeons. The last couple of days I've had to keep tabs on the situation on the fly; some of my posts were from my Iphone in my car. We've had a tragedy in my circle of friends here that has kept me occupied very much.
 

Bubbles2112

Is someone behind me???
Jun 22, 2008
1,702
0
36
North Carolina, USA
Real Name
Barbara
...In fact, I wish we had a sticky in this forum with photographs of fish that are suffering from various illnesses, diseases, and conditions.
It is a fantastic idea Mel! Photographs are just so much better than any description when trying to diagnose an illness in our fish.

I am also sorry that you and your friends have to deal with a tragedy and hope for a resolution for you guys.
 

BioHazard

Here and There
Mar 15, 2009
2,414
2
0
PA
I'm so very sorry, Anna, for this ordeal and for the loss of your fish. You have worked tirelessly to try to save them. Please know that we all consider you to be an excellent fishkeeper, and we all agonized alongside you to try to figure this out.

We all share in your sadness at the loss of your beautiful little fish. We do get attached and care so much about the little creatures in our care.

I agree that this thread is one that we all should save in our files; files that we hold as reference material for future use.

Your photographs are extremely important from start to finish, really, in this thread, and though you have suffered loss, (hopefully some will make it), this thread will help others in this situation in the future, though I know that doesn't take away the pain you feel, I hope that knowledge can provide some comfort.

In fact, I wish we had a sticky in this forum with photographs of fish that are suffering from various illnesses, diseases, and conditions.

We learn from the appearance of our own fish as we deal with these things, going through successes and failures, and we learn from the threads of other AC members; from the detailed descriptions of the progression of illness and disease and sometimes the photos that are included.

We google desperately, sometimes, for images of fish with ulcers, pimples, lesions, signs and symptoms to try to find pictures to compare to our fish in the process of trying to come up with a diagnosis.

A Sticky with photographs of fish displaying physical signs, lesions, and characteristics of various pathological conditions would be so helpful to us all.

A pictorial catalogue, if you will, of fish diseases, hopefully of the quality of your photographs here, could be an invaluable tool as we struggle to try to save our aquatic friends when they are sick.

I'm sorry I haven't been able to be of more help with this illness in your poor little gudgeons. The last couple of days I've had to keep tabs on the situation on the fly; some of my posts were from my Iphone in my car. We've had a tragedy in my circle of friends here that has kept me occupied very much.
Thank you for all your kind words, Mel. It's always good to know that people care.
With reference to your not being able to be more helpful, you were more help than you know. Your kind words and common sense advice have been very important to me, and I've looked forward to every post you've left.
I am very sorry for your personal tragedy. I love my fish, but they are replaceable, and friends are not. I hope that your issues work out in a positive way.
Again, thank you so much.

I will continue to update. We will see what the morning brings. For now, I just dumped some extra Prime and StressCoat in.
 

msjinkzd

AC Members
Feb 11, 2007
18,306
5
89
PA
msjinkzd.com
Real Name
Rachel O'Leary
if they don't make it by the time you come here, you can have your pick of species to stock your 10 with to restart free of charge
 

mel_20_20

AC Members
Sep 1, 2008
3,300
1
38
Deep in the heart of texas
Rach, you're an awesome lady! You are generous and kind hearted, a beautiful person right down to the bone.

Take her up on it, Anna. I can't think of a more trusted source of healthy fish.
 

snoopy65

I am Sam aka Snoopy65
Aug 24, 2008
4,628
0
0
Where the ducks walk on the fish, PA
That is awesome of you, Rach! Anna, I think I posted this already, but if there is anything that I have that MsJ does not (fat chance I know), just let me know and it will be on it's way to you.
 
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