Starting Back Up Again...Questions About Using Seachem Stability

[Kaskade10729]

When should I expect to see a cloudy bacterial bloom, if at all?

 

[dudley]

You may not see a bacterial bloom, not everyone does.

I recommend testing your aquarium once per day at about the same time of day. Write down the results so you can both refer to it when asked questions and so you can see the progression of the cycling process.

IF/when you see an ammonia reading of 0.50ppm or more, change 50% of the aquarium water and be sure to add the proper amount of water conditioner based on your chlorine or chloramine levels. IF/when you see a nitrite increase of 0.25ppm or more, perform a water change OR check out T TwoTankAmin topic on using sodium chloride to reduce nitrite effects on fish (hope I remember that correctly).

As far as the size of your fish, T the loach was referring to the length and general diameter of the fish. A small gold fish can be 2 inches long or 5 inches long depending on your point of view.

 

[Kaskade10729]

Thanks Dudley.

You may not see a bacterial bloom, not everyone does.

That's news to me; I thought this always happened.

I recommend testing your aquarium once per day at about the same time of day. Write down the results so you can both refer to it when asked questions and so you can see the progression of the cycling process.

I have been writing down the results each time I take them; as of right now, the levels haven't changed in the last two I've taken. I'll test again tonight, around the same time, and report back.

IF/when you see an ammonia reading of 0.50ppm or more, change 50% of the aquarium water and be sure to add the proper amount of water conditioner based on your chlorine or chloramine levels.

Thanks for this confirmation; indeed, I have always used Prime for water changes, but I have just measured according to the directions and size of my tank (which comes out to about a cap and a half for my 60 gallon)...is this not good enough?

IF/when you see a nitrite increase of 0.25ppm or more, perform a water change OR check out T TwoTankAmin topic on using sodium chloride to reduce nitrite effects on fish (hope I remember that correctly).

So I'm looking for spikes in AMMONIA and NITRITE, not NITRATE? And don't worry about pH levels right now?

Thanks again for your assistance.

 

[the loach]

The loach- let me try again perhaps with shorter words?

You cannot sell bottled bacteria that contains Nitrospira. The reason is simple, you can say it contains that strain of bacteria, but you cannot prove this.

You cannot prove it because the probe which will detect it is patented and you cannot use it without the permission of the patent holder.

The patent is held jointly by Dr, Hovanec and by Marineland which was purchased along with the patent rights to the probe, by Spectrum brands. Spectrum also owns Tetra who has the right to use the patented probes which they do to make Safe Start.

Thanks for rewording the argument, so I am sure I am getting this. Though you are wrong in your conclusions;
The patented probe does not exclude anyone from selling bottled bacteria. A patent is an exclusionary legal right for a particular invention or new method for an existing invention (the patent might be based on other patents even) it does not prevent anyone from using another method, and it does not even mean the patent is the best method (this would be of course impossible for the USPTO, or anyone to know)
Nitrifying bacteria form no spores but this argument is moot as the bottled bacteria are brought in a dormant state.

In conclusion; I don't doubt there is a quality difference between bottled bacteria products. Efficacy could be easily verified at home with test kits. That's why I state the strain is irrelevant, in 42 years I have never cared whether I had "the right strain" in my canister filters and I'm sure basically nobody does as long as the product works as advertised. However based on your statements it can not be deduced competing products can't work or may not be sold.

(ps: I don't use or even recommend bottled bacteria products as I normally tell folks to buy some floss or foam and trade it for used media with a hobbyist or get some from the LFS; however I am aware of folks using them, and at least some of them working other as these 2 products)

It will be interesting to see what Stability does (I don't know) keep us posted.

 

[Kaskade10729]

It will be interesting to see what Stability does (I don't know) keep us posted.

I used it in a previous setup with success, if I recall correctly, in that the goldfish we "started" with didn't die or show any signs of distress before the cycle was complete -- nor are the fish we have now.

Today was the last day of the Stability treatment; I'll keep checking in with daily water readings.

 

[dudley]

Kaskade10729 , you can keep dosing Prime as you've always done just to keep it simple. Some people test their tap water for either chlorine or chloramine before water changes because sometimes the local water authority or company may have performed some maintenance on the lines (breaks) or at the plant depending on the time of year and it's possible there would be more disinfectant at the home as a result.

Don't worry about nitrate right now because you are in a transition from using Stability to doing a fish in cycle. You can always test for nitrate if you want but it is not as important to the health of your fish as a measurable level of ammonia or nitrite is.

 

[Kaskade10729]

Thanks for your continued assistance, Dudley.

you can keep dosing Prime as you've always done just to keep it simple.

You mean when water changes begin, correct?

Some people test their tap water for either chlorine or chloramine before water changes because sometimes the local water authority or company may have performed some maintenance on the lines (breaks) or at the plant depending on the time of year and it's possible there would be more disinfectant at the home as a result.

I've always just put a bit more Prime in than recommended in case of something like this (so more like two capfuls for my size tank).

Don't worry about nitrate right now because you are in a transition from using Stability to doing a fish in cycle. You can always test for nitrate if you want but it is not as important to the health of your fish as a measurable level of ammonia or nitrite is.

This is what I don't get (regarding the fish-in cycle versus Stability); isn't the Stability supposed to "kick-start" the cycle? I was under the impression that the fish merely push the tolerances "over the edge," so to speak, via their waste and food so the cycle really begins...

At any rate, I was more concerned with knowing if any pH levels need to be tested right now -- but if you say don't worry about nitrAte, I will follow that advice; so I can just test for nitrIte and ammonia now?

As for my latest test results, it seems NO parameter has moved yet...here's what I got a couple hours ago:

SEVENTH AND LAST DAY OF STABILITY:

Ammonia: Somewhere between 0 and 0.25ppm, again
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: Somewhere between 0 and 5.0

 

[the loach]

If Stability works, there would be no cycle. Nitrate is only detrimental in higher concentrations, over time, the reason why you are testing it is because nitrates showing up now indicates Stability works, the tank is fully cycled if no ammonia/nitrite show up, so you can stock the tank.
Right now, with 2 small fish in a 60 gallon tank, it's probably going to take a long time before you get any test result (either ammonia or nitrate)
I assume Seachem means the bacteria would come out of hibernation when they find ammonia. The idea behind the concept is, you can fully stock the tank after using the bacteria in the bottle, a couple of small starter fish defeat the purpose.
You don't have to test the pH right now, not much is going to happen.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

T the loach

No , you still do not get it. If you would like a reading list which might help, I have about 150 research papers into cycling related issues bookmarked and I can share some of these.

I have also exchanged emails with Dr. Hovanec and had a number of discussion both via email and in person with Dr. Srepan Tanner of Swiss Tropicals as well. When I suffered unexplained fish losses about 6 years ago, I corresponded with the lead scientist who did the research showing the culprit was fish bags which used a specfic ingredient. I was losing my plecos in transit faster than the research had observed. My theory was the sucking action of the plecos on the sides of the bags was accelerating the release of the chemical. This was confirmed to me as the likely cause.

Most researchers investigating relative topics will respond to lay people who are not- disrespectful. Years back on this site there was a thread on the nutritional value of brine shrimp. I quoted a marine biologist on this. Another member here with no qualifications decided to dispute the scientist's opinions. It was a one sided discussion and the user eventually was banned from the site.

Not all so calleed bacterial starters for tanks are the same. They do not contain the same things. The bacteria in every one of your freshwater tanks does not contain anything that comes from a bottle of Stability. If you wish to dispute this it is simple, all you have to do is preovide the link to any peer reviewed published paper that identifies such bacteria as being present in the majority of established FW tanks. Ubtil then, I suggest you not argue a point of view for which there is no support nor evidence.

Nitrospira-like bacteria associated with nitrite oxidation in freshwater aquaria
TA Hovanec, LT Taylor, A Blakis… - Applied and …, 1998 - Am Soc Microbiol
Oxidation of nitrite to nitrate in aquaria is typically attributed to bacteria belonging to the genus Nitrobacter which are members of the α subdivision of the class Proteobacteria. In order to identify bacteria responsible for nitrite oxidation in aquaria, clone libraries of rRNA genes were developed from biofilms of several freshwater aquaria. Analysis of the rDNA libraries, along with results from denaturing gradient gel electrophoresis (DGGE) on frequently sampled biofilms, indicated the presence of putative nitrite-oxidizing bacteria …
Cited by 238 Related articles All 21 versions

https://aem.asm.org/content/aem/64/1/258.full.pdf
list of citing papers here https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=12645801936650989137&as_sdt=5,33&sciodt=0,33&hl=en

Those 238 research papers that use this paper as a reference for their work must have been fools. Maybe they should have consulted the loach instead? Sorry dude, you need to educate yourself re the science involved. I am not saying you are not an experienced nor a good fish keeper, what I am saying is you have little clue about the science which undelies the processes at work in tanks and/or nature in regards to the nitrogen cycle. I am willing to bet that you did not read any of the papers to which I linked in the thread.

 

[dudley]

Kaskade10729 , I forgot to answer your question on pH but it's one that I checked regularly when I initially set up my tanks. However, I am on a private well and over the years it has not changed.

I would still monitor all the parameters for the next week or so with your 2 existing fish to see if you see any changes . A newly cycled aquarium usually only has sufficient 'good' bacteria to support the existing bio-load so stock any new fish slowly and monitor the parameters daily in case you see the ammonia and nitrite increase above zero.

You may be seeing the slight amount of ammonia, 0.25ppm, because the API test kit is picking up the less harmful ammonium. Some people see to always see that slight reading for some reason and often choose to put a Seachem Ammonia Alert gadget in the tank that can differentiate between the two.