Hardy mid to high light plants

fishorama said:
No, don't buy T-5s!! Mine are old & bulbs are expensive to replace every 6-12 months (probably more than I actually do). LEDs are less expensive to run, bulbs last much longer
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I think I remember you saying you had your lights on for about 8 hrs a day, which is 2920 hours per year. On this forum it is often recited you have to change fluorescent bulbs every 12 months, while "LEDS last so much longer"
The lighting industry does have a unit for this called LLMF (Lamp Lumen Maintenance Factor, the time it takes the light output to reach a certain percentage of the original output).

This can differ between type and brand of course, but let's just pick the 865 of the T5HO 54watt you have:
www.lighting.philips.com

MASTER TL5 HO 54W/865 SLV/40 | Philips lighting

The world's brightest fluorescent lighting | Philips lighting
www.lighting.philips.com www.lighting.philips.com

LLMF still 90% after 20,000 hours. That's over 6 1/2 years at 8 hours a day. It is accepted that LEDS have a LLMF of 70%. When you wade through the LED specifications, you will see that most do not have the nominal lifetime (Nom) as fluorescents. Some do, not by that much as people led you to believe, but then we are going to talk about replacement costs before it can be claimed they are less expensive to run. This will have to include the light, not just the electricity, to make a fair comparison.
 
Hmm, everything I've read says LEDs last 5x longer but I'm sure that can depend on quality of emitters, protection from water, etc. I'm not ready to invest in new fixtures yet unless 1 of my T-5 ballasts or something dies. Plus I was given some "lightly used" bulbs from an every 6 months replacer, I figure they're good for a while yet, lol. I have also read old fluorescents lose some of their color spectrum & that can lead to algae...that's why some people replace them so often. Those bulbs in your link seem better than I remember the drop off being.

Energy costs are almost a non-issue for me, we have solar electric panels :). Our power co. just replaced all our screw in bulbs with LEDs for free. I asked about fluorescent tube replacements but no, lol.

Were I buying new I would still get LEDs but maybe not the bottom or top of the line available now. Less heat produced by LEDs is also a plus over T-5s, no mercury either. Technology can only get better & prices drop, I hoping to wait.
 
I do read often they last X times longer as well, but it is typically a sales pitch. One thing they do is group incandescents in with fluorescents and then say last X times longer/ X times less power, meaning incandescents (for which the statement would be true), but not fluorescents. In that previous thread I picked a random LED bulb from the Phillips catalogue: https://www.lighting.philips.com/ma...bes/led-bulbs/ecohome/929001954811_EU/product
Lifetime 10,000 hours. Sure there are some that are rated higher up to 30,000 but you still have 30% loss of power over most of that, and my personal experience is it doesn't stop at 70% either. Nor is the lifetime a guarantee, they can and do break down after only a year or 2 and you can't repair a LED it has to be entirely replaced.

On the other hand, there are fluorescents (especially aimed at the aquarium market) that are very expensive, and do not have such a long lifespan.
The short LLMF for fluorescents might have been true in the 80's, I do remember them fading much quicker. That is why I am urging to look at the specs whatever you buy fluorescent or LED. But I do not see the benefits coming from aquarium aimed LEDs but the all purpose LED strips.
LEDS do have some benefits over fluorescents that are often overseen, like you mention for example less heat produced. Especially in (sub)tropical areas you don't want to add more heat, and I do use LEDs for example in my weather loach tank, they can easily rise up 3 or 4" out of the water and would hurt themselves on the fluorescents.
 
Well, if I don't have to climb a ladder to replace bulbs as often, I'm happier with room LED light fixtures :) . Really, LEDs have come a long way in the last 7-10 years & there's still room for better freshwater aquaria data instead of salt...like I said, I'm waiting for more info...or bargains from my "must have the latest tech" friends & clubbers ;)

I know I looked at "plug & play" LED T-5 replacements but they don't seem quite good enough for the price. For now I'll stick with my T-5s.

I think Riptide's lights will be fine for low-medium light plants...& hopefully the flowerhorn will be good with that too.
 
I have LEDs in every room replacing incandescent bulbs and such, but that is a totally different comparison. I was an early adopter and yes they are better now. I am interested in saving power, so I would have loved the "LED Lumens are more as fluorescent Lumens" to be true.
It did not make sense to me when this was claimed by LED sellers, but it is easy enough to test so I did that, anyone can do it and see for themselves.

Check the Lumen specification for your fluorescent and get a LED strip of the same temperature. You can cut the LED strip to where it matches the fluorescent in Lumen. Use 2 identical tanks, or both in the same tank and switch them on one at a time to see the difference.
Lumen is defined as "visible light". Now the claim is a LED Lumen is twice as much because "the fluorescent emits half of its Lumen/light upwards" or something to that effect. This would be very apparent and easy to see if true (it's not that the claim is it is 4% more which would barely be visible nor make a difference).
I tested it and there is no difference visible. It would be good and easily visible too, if it just was 50% brighter but unfortunately, it is not true.
If it were I'd replace my larger fluorescents and tell people they could save some money on electricity. It would be good... maybe in the future they will catch up. Right now they "use less power" cause they have less Lumens.
 
I will just restate "visible to the human eye light is not the same as plant usable light" or something close to that. I will never accept lighting that makes my plants happy & my fish look crappy...like those purplish "grow lights" of old...bah!

All "temperature lighting" is NOT created equal, maybe to our eyes but not to our plants. That's part of the problem with LEDs' specs, they may average out to the "right" spectrum & still not be in the "happy" range for most plants...or make the fish look good too. I want it all! Bright is not the same as better.
 
I agree with you I want the fish to look good first and foremost. I call the old "grow lights" fun fair lights. But that is where temperature and CRI comes in.
A high CRI requires a full spectrum. But both CRI and temperature are not critical for plant growth (most normal application bulbs). You can grow plants fine with the cheapest hardware store bulbs. But it will look flat and as if they're swimming in cat pee.

"visible to the human eye light is not the same as plant usable light" is a logical fallacy to the argument "LED Lumens are more as fluorescent Lumens".
By definition, the Lumen is defined as "visible light".

In my test, I used full spectrum 6500K lights with a high CRI. The LED even exceeded the CRI of the fluorescent. I am still using those LEDs in another tank and they grow plants great. IMHO, it is the best LED I've seen so far. The argument from LED proponents that LED Lumens are more as fluorescent Lumens fails both in logic as in practice.
The problem with LEDs specs, especially aquarium targeted, is mostly there are none. LEDs are not exempt from standardized units. When you buy/use them by specification of Lumen, Kelvin and CRI correctly, you know what you will get and can grow plants with them just as any other light type with those specifications.
 
fishorama said:
No, don't buy T-5s!! Mine are old & bulbs are expensive to replace every 6-12 months (probably more than I actually do). LEDs are less expensive to run, bulbs last much longer & probably similar in cost to new T-5s.

The hard part is learning what LEDs to get for your tank size & plants to get to "medium" light. I'm not there yet as you can tell. There is a lot of different info out there & here too. I was hoping you'd get a better answer here, but part of it may be that you asked about high light in your thread title. I think you'd be happier at a low to medium level to be able to grow some plants well...but certainly not all.

I have seen anubias come back from leaf loss (due to medications or heat?). But I have also had a couple that had some kind of virus or rhizome rot, just a few thin brown fibers down the middle. I tried cutting back to healthy tissue several times but it came back & I tossed the plants (2 different sources & species of anubias). Are absolutely sure you flowerhorn didn't nibble it? I'm sure there are many hours a day you're not watching...tender new growth might be tempting.

I'm concerned that java fern didn't grow for you. I've kept in very low light, growth was slow. But could it be that what seemed like a dying plant was adjusting to your tank? Old leaves turn brown at least at the edges but that can also be a sign that those leaves are going to produce baby fernlets better adjusted to their current conditions. Maybe you gave up too soon? Even an almost dead looking leaf floating around a tank eventually can grow new plantlets.

Just some thoughts, but not on your LEDs...& that's what you need right now. I think perhaps starting a new thread about LEDs would get you better advice than the 3 of us answering your original question (high light plants...LEDs... & with a flowerhorn). I know there are many with LEDs that might help you that have none of those but LEDs & what plants they can grow.

You might also google flowerhorn & plants & LEDs to get a more focused answer. I don't know anyone who keeps that combo...BIG hybrid fish & plants of any kind. I've only seen them in bare bottom shop tanks...maybe for a reason?
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Okay back to your first reply after my last one, my fh is relatively tame for a cichlid if his nature. The anubias was originally attached to driftwood (wedged in not tied by any rubber bands) and had many, many leaves. They all melted away while still loosely attached. It would be hard to imagine that he nibbled at every single leaf without dislodging the plant, But it’s entirely possible ??‍♂️.
As for Java ferns, they disappeared a long time ago I never removed them.
and yes my question is misguiding but you guys helped me diagnose the problem and guided me to a new direction of research. I can’t thank you guys enough already ?. I’ll do as much research as I can before posting a new thread

Replying to your other replies:
I have Pothos lining the back of the tank and in one of the filters but I don’t think they’re any match for the poop machine that a healthy cichlid can be. I’m sure lighting is the issue. That said I’ll stick to LEDs most likely but I’ll be sure to read the specs more carefully
 
the loach said:
I do read often they last X times longer as well, but it is typically a sales pitch. One thing they do is group incandescents in with fluorescents and then say last X times longer/ X times less power, meaning incandescents (for which the statement would be true), but not fluorescents. In that previous thread I picked a random LED bulb from the Phillips catalogue: https://www.lighting.philips.com/ma...bes/led-bulbs/ecohome/929001954811_EU/product
Lifetime 10,000 hours. Sure there are some that are rated higher up to 30,000 but you still have 30% loss of power over most of that, and my personal experience is it doesn't stop at 70% either. Nor is the lifetime a guarantee, they can and do break down after only a year or 2 and you can't repair a LED it has to be entirely replaced.

On the other hand, there are fluorescents (especially aimed at the aquarium market) that are very expensive, and do not have such a long lifespan.
The short LLMF for fluorescents might have been true in the 80's, I do remember them fading much quicker. That is why I am urging to look at the specs whatever you buy fluorescent or LED. But I do not see the benefits coming from aquarium aimed LEDs but the all purpose LED strips.
LEDS do have some benefits over fluorescents that are often overseen, like you mention for example less heat produced. Especially in (sub)tropical areas you don't want to add more heat, and I do use LEDs for example in my weather loach tank, they can easily rise up 3 or 4" out of the water and would hurt themselves on the fluorescents.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the scientific perspective to this issue. I’ll most likely stick to LEDs. At one point you mentioned cheap lights for growing plants would make everything look “like cat pee” but could I use one of those in addition to my current one? (So one is a display light, the other is more useful for growing). Or should I replace it entirely? And if I use more than one light do i just add the lumens together and go from there?
And I know it’s a bit late to throw another parameter into this but algae in my tank grows very quickly so will a more “nutritious” light make that worse?
 
I was referring to cheap hardware store fluorescent bulbs, which are 3000 to 4000K with a CRI of ±80. Not that a good quality 6500K fluorescent is that much more expensive, but they often don't carry those. It would be a waste not to use your LED, it has a good color temperature for one. You could get another LED, if you want a cheap hardware store fluorescent fixture in there you put that one in the back, and you don't notice the color/flatness that much. That's a trick how we did it in the 70's/80's when there just wasn't much choice in bulbs. Yes you can just add the Lumens up.
What kind of algae are they, brown algae? More light means more algae but I don't see algae as a light problem but a water quality/parameter issue; when you have the right conditions for plants they will outcompete algae. I think you said you had almost 0 nitrate that can cause algae as well, you may have to add KNO3 so the plants can take over.
 
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