Mafia 61: The Gunslinger - Game Thread

[Zaffy]

Razz - Still not buying Razz's excuses for not posting earlier. Posting lists without comments and seem to just be skating by.

Zaff - Replaces JB in my list since I think his last second case on Annie clears him. Zaffy hasn't been playing like normal, in fact I forget they are around. I know this is because of the RL trouble (I am very sorry BTW Zaffy). I think they would have probably withdrawn if they didn't have a special role. That's a horrible reason to suspect someone but its a thought.

Lab, Red, Agas - No idea they haven't added much to the game, I bet at least one is Mafia. I'd like to hear more from all of them but I think they are to sketch for you to target right now Ice.

If I were Sherriff I would probably shoot Zaffy or Razz.

Don't worry about it, I don't take offense or anything. We all know this is a game. I don't feel like I'm playing any differently, but I may be. I'm not a big talker, but I hope that I add substance when I do.

Ziiiiiing right in tha kissa!

I hate to sound OMGUSy, but the timing of this post did somewhat bug me. It's right after Ice announces his target, I may be reading it wrong, but it sounds almost like Zsand knew the outcome before MadCraw posted. Everything else he's said seems pretty pro-town to me though.

 

[ZSandmann]

Okay, Z... what are you thinking about Kash and Jpap. I have vague suspicions of both, but nothing that really stands out. Any thoughts?

Well Kash as I've said I feel is Innocent since she wouldn't give up a list on Day 1 even when I questioned her on it and Ice and others followed up. It's nothing conclusive but she does seem to be working to help the Town even though she can't solidify her suspects. She likes be able to say "So and so is scum because of this post, this post, this post, etc." This format makes that much more difficult.

Pappy... He is active and seems to be kicking bushes; I haven't got anything to point to that says Mafia, so I have to lean him Innocent. Also, his Day 1 list was Annie, Lab, Razz, Zaffy/JB. Do you put a teammate first on your list on Day 1 to distance yourself? I dunno. Other than Annie, his list looks a lot like mine so that also leans him innocent to me.

Not entirely true. What if Kash is right and since Jb thought Kash was the target he was setting himself up for the next night since Annie was her only suspect.

That is a possibility but doesn't seem likely to me. Kash hasn't shown much effort to really push Annie, so I think that would been a heck of a Hail Mary on his part.

 

[jbradt]

Well Kash as I've said I feel is Innocent since she wouldn't give up a list on Day 1 even when I questioned her on it and Ice and others followed up. It's nothing conclusive but she does seem to be working to help the Town even though she can't solidify her suspects. She likes be able to say "So and so is scum because of this post, this post, this post, etc." This format makes that much more difficult.

Pappy... He is active and seems to be kicking bushes; I haven't got anything to point to that says Mafia, so I have to lean him Innocent. Also, his Day 1 list was Annie, Lab, Razz, Zaffy/JB. Do you put a teammate first on your list on Day 1 to distance yourself? I dunno. Other than Annie, his list looks a lot like mine so that also leans him innocent to me.



That is a possibility but doesn't seem likely to me. Kash hasn't shown much effort to really push Annie, so I think that would been a heck of a Hail Mary on his part.

I see what you mean on Kash and Jpap. But isn't it also likely that Kash didn't produce a list because she didn't want to get pinned down? Seems to me like the kind of thing a cagy mafia would try. Especially in this format. I understand that she is a more analytical player and likes to have evidence, etc. But a townie's role is to help the GS. And I don't see how directly denying the information he asks for is helping. No one was comfortable picking 4 suspects, even Ice said it was unrealistic. But we all did... including Kash. I guess that's the thing that pulls me back from being able to lean her innocent.

And yes, it would have been a heck of a hail mary. It was infact, me just doing what I do and looking for scum.

 

[jbradt]

I have to throw Razz in there too while I'm thinking about it. Seems strange that he's just skating through. I realize several others have called this out. But I wanted to reiterate it.

 

[Kashta]

I'll post a quick reply to these 2 posts now before I leave. Then I'll be out for a very nice dinner. Will review the thread all over again later tonight and post more as I go along.

As I figured, Ice was setting one of his traps by running the case on Kash. Therefore, you were not being named as a likely shot, nor was Annie. So the fact you made a detailed case against Annie minutes before Ice shot means you had no reason to distance yourself and you genuinely thought Annie was Mafia. This clears you IMO.

I wouldn't make that assumption, Z... I don't doubt for a minute that Ice genuinely suspected me before deciding to shoot Annie instead. I am a legitimate suspect here.... along with several others. And only the mafia knows for sure whether I'm innocent or mafia. Ice and all the other innocents do have to consider the possibility that I might be evil in this game.

For that matter, if Ice gets a bug up his (you know where!), he's liable to still shoot me at any time. I may have been given a temporary pass with his first shot.. but even I know I'm still in his sights for the second one.

Not entirely true. What if Kash is right and since Jb thought Kash was the target he was setting himself up for the next night since Annie was her only suspect.

That's why I want to take my time and sift through the thread a few more times again from start to finish. I wasn't able to pin things down well enough to get very far yet so I wasn't as helpful to you as I need to be. But knowing Annie's role gives us more info to work with. I do keep notes (as everyone knows) but I didn't keep track of everything... and nothing beats re-reading the posts.

More later....

 

[jbradt]

Here's one thing that's been bothering me, Kash.

You need to cover all the bases here, Ice. If you're set on shooting me, then do me the favor of posting the ideas you have if I turn out to be innocent too.

Once you're dead and gone and I'm stuck with the stupid gun next, I won't be able to ask you those questions.

You ask Ice to elaborate his ideas so you can build on them when you get "stuck with the stupid gun". I have to question anyone asking the GS to blatantly out their thoughts when the merits of keeping those thoughts closely kept have been stated. But I can see the logic in an innocent wanting to know. Though it seems odd that elsewhere you go far enough to say that you're no longer intimidated by Ice. This would lead me to believe his input wouldn't be as important as you seem to make it here.

If your innocent then you already have somewhat of a suspect list. Annie is your main suspect. Go from them and figure out the team.

Zs post about Kash pushes him higher on my list. I wouldn't at all be surprised that Annie is on the team. Annie threatening to shoot Kash or Jpap also leads me to believe Jpap is mafia.

Thats 4 right there. How close am I guys?

Can I have a Tommy Gun,Mad?

Ice's reply to Kash's questioning.

Okay, Ice. At least it's a starting point. Thank you.

Kash's response to Ice's answer is where my problem really lies. I would expect Kash to want to talk more about the ideas put forth, or reasons for believing things, etc. I would expect her to be looking for these things, but she just seems to accept it. It just seems... odd. Granted, I haven't played a ton of games with Kash...

Obviously, none of this really means anything, but it's what's bothering me at the moment. I have to wonder though about people who are trying to draw information out of the GS, as opposed to giving the information and perspective we can gather.

I'll be back with more along these lines.

 

[jpappy789]

Jpap, you might want to go back and reread the entire post as I only snipped what my question is about. But I don't see how this question helps in any way except to help you build a case by twisting whatever they say.



Question Z. Is Kash right here too? Is this distancing?











Kash you state you misread this post because it was late at night. The post was at 1030 AM.




Lets break this down a bit.

We know Annie was mafia. We know who I think is mafia.

If you had to choose 1 of the 3 who would you choose and why?

Ice, I was specifically interested in what they had to say after reading my post on who I thought would most likely have picked you. I wanted it to be separate from your question hence why I asked them to repeat there answer regardless of what they said earlier in response to you. To be honest, I wasn't exactly sure what I would have gotten out of it and I dont think they all replied directly to me anyways. JB had come to the same conclusion, oddly enough, but other than that it was a failed question. I figured at the very least would put some sort of pressure on them. I don't know what you are getting at though...

Well Kash as I've said I feel is Innocent since she wouldn't give up a list on Day 1 even when I questioned her on it and Ice and others followed up. It's nothing conclusive but she does seem to be working to help the Town even though she can't solidify her suspects. She likes be able to say "So and so is scum because of this post, this post, this post, etc." This format makes that much more difficult.

Pappy... He is active and seems to be kicking bushes; I haven't got anything to point to that says Mafia, so I have to lean him Innocent. Also, his Day 1 list was Annie, Lab, Razz, Zaffy/JB. Do you put a teammate first on your list on Day 1 to distance yourself? I dunno. Other than Annie, his list looks a lot like mine so that also leans him innocent to me.



That is a possibility but doesn't seem likely to me. Kash hasn't shown much effort to really push Annie, so I think that would been a heck of a Hail Mary on his part.

I believe I also specifically put Annie out there as my number one candidate for being shot. I know that in no way would that put me off the hook but risky, dontcha think? I also believe it was before anyone else took a hard look at him but I would have to check timing. I just thought I would point that out since it seems both me and Kash are under fire for being connected to him...

Its weird, never can an innocent be right about who is mafia...as soon as one's role is revealed the other is thought to have been distancing. Oh well, I guess you have to cover the bases.

Anyways, that's all of my defensive-ness for now. I should be back for some analysis in a jiffy...

 

[jpappy789]

Ok. So here's Dawg's first post...

Wow! OK...so I checked in last night and saw Z's post about starting the game...I looked in GCC and there was no game yet and I didn't get back until now to check. Oh well. Anyway here's what I see so far...

Here's a post from Pappy about what a good strategy would be for the game...



Then not even an hour later...



The bold red statements are contradictory and take place over the course of less than an hour. The bold blue statement makes me ask the question...Pappy, why are you trying to fit in and why are you trying to make a case for why you wouldn't have picked Ice after you already said he would be a good choice?


In answering Ice's question...I think the only upside of you shooting me tonight is that Pappy would be next.


In answering Pappy's question...I think Ice was a good choice by the mafia if Kash is mafia. I would have personally chosen Kash to get her out early if possible. This puts Kash up a bit on my list but I still see Pappy sticking out like a sore thumb.

This is a tough game though and I don't envy Ice's decision at all.

The majority of the post has been clarified but I missed the bolded part.

Hmmm, where have I heard that reasoning before? Oh yeah, Annie tried to do the same thing to me and Kash. The whole "you weren't chosen therefore you're mafia" rhetoric is scummmmy.

Also notice that I've been taken notice of, presumably beacuase of what Dawg thought I said. Again, it was cleared up...almost immediately after this post.

OK...so I went back and reread my post and I think that JPap is speaking hypothetically about if he were mafia. Not sure but I'd still like to hear from JPap.

My first guess at 4 mafia:

Annie
Zaffy
Kash
Z/JPap

ok so I picked 5. But since I put them both on the same line it counts as 1 right. If I was forced to pick between Z and JPap right now I'd flip a coin.

So now this is Dawgs list. Two things strike me as odd.

1) Dawg had yet to say anything about either Zaffy or Z or Annie
2) I'm still on the list...I thought everything had been clarified?

Since I didn't do this before I'll explain my reasoning behind my picks. I started with the original player list...

Agassizii
Annie
Dawg
Ice
JB
Jpap
Kash
Lab_Rat
RazzleFish
TRS
Z
Zaffy

I took myself and Ice out of the equation since I know the roles. I figured 2 newer players and 2 vets for mafia. Of the newer players Annie and Zaffy stand out as scummier and as for the vets there are only 3 left who could be mafia...Kash, Z and JPap. I understand that for the other players who are not sure of my role my name could be substituted for one of the other vets. But this is the way I see it.

The reason I say 2 vets and 2 newer players are mafia is due to this format I believe roles would definitely have to be hand picked.

Ok, so now here's the reasoning. Notice that Dawg has yet to point to anything anyone has said. His list is based on the theory that Mad split up the town into newer and older players...neat idea but this is neither evidenced by anything Mad has said nor does it explain why you then picked who you did. Annie and Zaffy stand out most? How so? Then he throws all three of the remaining vets onto the list without saying anything else. I presume though that Kash was chosen using Annies reasoning but I am confused as to why then me and Z were chosen. I cant even describe how weird and baffling this method is to choosing suspects.

Dawg, I consider you to be an excellent case maker yet you couldnt even pull one post to explain why people made your list other than they are newer, or a vet, and they stand out more.

here's my updated list...

Kash
Z/JPap
Zaffy

now in order.

Same list but without Annie. Its also odd that Dawg, who has Kash as a top suspect, has yet to dig any deeper into the conversation than this list.

 

[jpappy789]

Agassizii- hasn't said much, which is scary since he helped win a game as mafia by doing the exact same thing. Gunna say on the fence for now.

Dawg- see above

Ice- innocent and vanilla flavored

JB- it still doesnt sit right with us being on the same page for the most part that early, but I like the participation and the case for Annie w/o knowing first who Ice would hit eases the suspision a bit.

Kash- not posting a list still has started to bug me. As far as I know every single player except her did, and no one has yet to say that they are confident in their suspicions. But that was the excuse...I understand wanting to be cautious, but at the same time that in no way helped. In fact, it put the target almost squarely on your back.

Lab_Rat- was more of a gut feel but the fact that Annie picked up on that one post first has me wary, especially since it wasnt exactly the scummiest thing said. Moving back towards the middle of the overall list.

RazzleFish- I wasnt around for the whole posting thing so thats not a factor, but the list was a complete joke. I'm still looking for any posts that gave them the indication that the players mentioned were "saying a lot but not really at all", or something to that effect. The fact that it included Annie points me to possible distancing since there was no evidence at all.

TRS- kind of like Agass. Hasn't said much to have me leaning either way.

Z- I dont seem to be picking up on why Zs is a top suspect with most people. Im not counting him out but Ive yet to see anything either way other than what appears to be someone trying to be helpful. Im not going to place suspicion just on that though.

Zaffy- completely neutral. The lack of posting means its hard to read him. I hope that everything takes a turn for the better though!

My new list, in no particular order other than alphabetical:

JB
Dawg
Kash
Razz

 

[IceH2O]

While reading over posts this morning I noticed JB had brought something up.When I reread the quote I noticed something I had missed also.

You need to cover all the bases here, Ice. If you're set on shooting me, then do me the favor of posting the ideas you have if I turn out to be innocent too.

Once you're dead and gone and I'm stuck with the stupid gun next, I won't be able to ask you those questions.

IF not when she turns out innocent?


Good points on Dawg there Jpap. Any rebuttal Dawg?

Jpap I asked about your question because I thought it to be perfect to try and manipulate any answer they gave. You said you wanted them to reanswer no matter what they said to my question. My question had nothing to do with why I was chosen. I wanted to know why should I shoot them.