Mafia 61: The Gunslinger - Game Thread

[Kashta]

While reading over posts this morning I noticed JB had brought something up.When I reread the quote I noticed something I had missed also.

IF not when she turns out innocent?


Good points on Dawg there Jpap. Any rebuttal Dawg?

Jpap I asked about your question because I thought it to be perfect to try and manipulate any answer they gave. You said you wanted them to reanswer no matter what they said to my question. My question had nothing to do with why I was chosen. I wanted to know why should I shoot them.

Ice... see the two posts below.

Right now I'm leaning towards Kash as my shot. 1st off for someone who has no suspects she has done a lot of finger pointing while being very non committal about any of it.
But what really leans me this way is her insistence to hit lesser players to get them out of the game early or in better terms save our best for last. Look at her list again. All the players she thinks I should target she has leaning innocent( italics). Why would I target innocent?
The 3rd reasoning is the claim she'd be lost as Slinger and not know who to hit. I think she thinks I'd not risk hitting her if she is as clueless as she claims.


The rest of the team I'm not as sure about but I'm leaning the team to be

Kash
Jpap
JB
Z

They played off one another to much and to conveniently. I don't like the suspect lists at all except the fact they just about named the same players and even added one another as suspects.

I could be wrong and Annie could be on the team. At that point I'd probably drop Z off the team.

If Kash is mafia then I'd probably hit Jpap or JB next. I think they hold the key for me on who else could be on the team.

You need to cover all the bases here, Ice. If you're set on shooting me, then do me the favor of posting the ideas you have if I turn out to be innocent too.

My post was in response to yours and I went with the phrasing you did. We were both talking about the possibility "if" I'm mafia. I wanted to know your thoughts "if" I'm innocent.

As in...

If Kash is mafia... etc etc.
If Kash is innocent... etc etc. <-- and that's the question I asked you.

 

[The Red Severum]

Kash, who would you hit first? JB or Dawg?
What makes lab and sand on your non mafia list? Ice seems to be on labs tail about being mafia, yet you think she is innocent?
I agree with jpap being a townie, but usually you and him are trying to get each other killed.
Why do you only like the low posters as people you think might be mafia. (there is nothing wrong with that, just want to see where your coming from)

 

[Kashta]

I don't think so. It doesn't usually work that way. You are still on my list because you are scummy. You and Kash both have the same comments in your posts and are both IMO distancing yourselves from Annie. I will adress this a bit later.

How was I distancing myself from Annie when he was the only name I gave as my strongest suspect?

You understand mafia strategy better than this, Dawg. If I was mafia and wanted to distance myself from Annie... I would have built cases on someone else using whatever excuse I could invent. Otherwise, I ran a big risk of getting my teammate killed. That isn't "mafia distancing"... that's playing like an idiot.

I'm much better at this than that when I'm evil, Dawg. Your attempt to link me to Annie falls short.

 

[ZSandmann]

Agassizii - No idea. Not helping, not hurting as far as I know.
Dawg - The suspicious thing about him is that nothing stands out, Normally he's a bigger player I think.
JB - Big help against annie on night one, a hero. See below.
Jpap - I could go either way on Jpap right now.
Kash - Shes clever, gotta watch her. Leaning town right now though.
Lab_Rat - Nothing jumps out, fewer posts than me?
RazzleFish - I dunno the deal with Razzle. Could go either way.
TRS - Not a big poster, playing his cards close, but he always does.
Z - Weird timing on a post imo, might be tinfoil, might be swamp gas from venus, might be scum. I could see shooting him.

I wonder about a Zsand and JB link, Zsand is pretty sure that JB is vanilla. He makes some good points. But if the scum team knew Annie was making a target of himself JB's post is a great distancing tool with Zsands support even better.

My mafia team is Zsand, JB, Anyone, Annie.

*Scratches head, so JB is a Hero Mafia?

 

[dirtydawg10]

How was I distancing myself from Annie when he was the only name I gave as my strongest suspect?

You understand mafia strategy better than this, Dawg. If I was mafia and wanted to distance myself from Annie... I would have built cases on someone else using whatever excuse I could invent. Otherwise, I ran a big risk of getting my teammate killed. That isn't "mafia distancing"... that's playing like an idiot.

I'm much better at this than that when I'm evil, Dawg. Your attempt to link me to Annie falls short.

I already posted this but you must have skimmed it...The big bold paragraph in your post below. You and JPap must have been copying off the same mafia cheat sheet on how to implicate yet not implicate your temmate.

Well, we don't have to vote today like in a normal game.. but if I had to (as I've said) it would be a pretty random one. If I could name actual suspects....... I would have. I'm really undecided about who to believe is being forthright with their posts (other than Ice who needs to hold his cards close to his chest until he's ready to take his shot).

The closest thing I have to a suspect is Annie, as I posted earlier. And his last post hasn't changed that.... that was nothing but a load of crap. No one in this game is seriously going to "vote" for the same people regardless of which team they're playing for. So Annie is doing nothing but covering his arse.... and IMO that equates to taking a scummy position. On the other hand, Annie has a real bad habit of acting like scum even when he's innocent. I found that out first-hand when we were communicating vigilantes together (in a previous game). Would Annie get my vote today if voting was required? I don't know.

Now, if you want me to elaborate a bit more about the Zsand/Jpappy and Dawg/Jbradt split, I will. But that's nowhere near placing a vote or naming either of them as suspects. For the most part, Dawg and JB "seem" to be in general agreement with each other while both Zsand and Jpappy "seem" to agree with the general observations I have so far. But as I pointed out earlier, that apparent alliance is probably contrived for appearances sake. I don't trust any of the 4 names solidly enough to count them on the town side and I don't have anything specific enough to point either of them out yet as likely mafia. I've no doubt, however, that at least one of them are on the scum side this round.

That quote doesn't come close to implicating Annie as your strongest suspect. It states you think he's evil yet you think he acts like scum when he's innocent. You get off the hook when he shows up scum because he's on your list but you don't commit to anything. Instead you say "closest thing" to a suspect that you have. That's not very convincing in my book. Then you go on to implicate Z, JPap, JB and myself...but again not really when you go back and read it.

 

[dirtydawg10]

Agassizii - No idea. Not helping, not hurting as far as I know.
Dawg - The suspicious thing about him is that nothing stands out, Normally he's a bigger player I think.
JB - Big help against annie on night one, a hero. See below.
Jpap - I could go either way on Jpap right now.
Kash - Shes clever, gotta watch her. Leaning town right now though.
Lab_Rat - Nothing jumps out, fewer posts than me?
RazzleFish - I dunno the deal with Razzle. Could go either way.
TRS - Not a big poster, playing his cards close, but he always does.
Z - Weird timing on a post imo, might be tinfoil, might be swamp gas from venus, might be scum. I could see shooting him.

I wonder about a Zsand and JB link, Zsand is pretty sure that JB is vanilla. He makes some good points. But if the scum team knew Annie was making a target of himself JB's post is a great distancing tool with Zsands support even better.

My mafia team is Zsand, JB, Anyone, Annie.

By "nothing stands out" what do you mean? You mean I'm not posting enough or that I'm not posting like a scum?

 

[dirtydawg10]

Back to posting again. I didn't get through the thread last night as I intended, so I'm still doing that this morning. And I've taken a quick look now to see what's happened here since last night.... not all that much from what I see, other than the mafia is feeling some pressure after losing Annie.

Ice (and others) have been wanting something definitive from me... here it is. So now I'll go back and pull the posts and give my reasons.

Mafia: Annie, JB, Dawg, (need to identify 1 more).
Suspicious: Agass, Razzle, TRS, Zaffy.
Not mafia: Ice, Lab Rat, Jpappy, Zsand, Kashta.

If you decide to give me that gun, Ice, you can see now who I'm going to point it at. Or you could take a shot at either JB or Dawg to find out yourself if I'm right or wrong. Either way, I'm on record now with a specific call on all but 4 people from the player list.

So a list finally comes out. Wow you really think Annie is mafia? Amazing!
I'm not sure about JB but I know I shouldn't be in the mafia column. But the thing that stands out the most to me is how many innocents you have on your list. The second day into the game and you already know 3 innocents (besides yourself and Ice) without doubt...you are good! They are not even suspicious to you...:laugh:

 

[Kashta]

Kash was showing a list of people she thought Ice should shoot and I'm assuming JPap did the same.

Dawg.. this is sloppy work on your part. You are misrepresenting the names I listed. Is that deliberate? Or just an error on your part?

You need to go back and read the original posts one more time.

1. Ice posted a list of players he felt were "dangerous" to the mafia. He left off 4 people... Agassizii, Annie, Lab_Rat, and RazzleFish.

2. We've agreed that Ice was chosen as GS first BECAUSE he's dangerous to the mafia. When I saw his list of names I thought any one of those people were likely the mafia's second choice if they hadn't picked Ice. So if Ice shot one of those people.. he would be doing exactly what the mafia was hoping he would do. I didn't like that notion... so I looked at an alternative suggestion.

3. All 4 of those names were not my suspect list... as you are trying to claim now. I said ONE of the people on that list was probably mafia. I was hoping Ice (and the rest of us) might be able to identify at least one scummy player from among those 4 people. Then if Ice shot one of them and killed a mafia player... we'd still be left with all the others who are potentially dangerous to the mafia side (excluding those who turned out to be mafia themselves, of course).

Here are both of these the posts to restore the accurate context of that list... Ice's post first, followed by my response to Ice.

In this post, Ice is naming the people he considered most dangerous to the mafia side.

Really? This the best reasoning you guys could think up?

I'd be more afraid of:

Dawg
JB
Jpap
Kash
TRS
Z
Zaffy

Here.. I posted the 4 names Ice left out.

This is a good point, Ice. And since we figure the mafia picked you as the first gunslinger because they feel you're dangerous to them.... you'd likely make the mafia very happy if you target somebody else YOU consider dangerous when taking your shot. For that reason, I'd rather see you shoot someone not on the list you just gave us... that leaves these names then as promising suspects for at least one mafia position on their team.

Agassizii
Annie
Lab_Rat
RazzleFish

Even if it's a miss and we lose you in the game as a result, at least you're not putting another good mafia hunter into the next risky gunslinger position so soon.

As it turned out, I was right. There was at least one person on the list who was mafia..... Annie. Ice didn't shoot one of the people he considered most dangerous to the mafia.. and he didn't die by hitting an innocent.

The advice I came up with to offer may not have had anything to do with his decision to shoot Annie at all.. but it was still sound advice and turned out to be correct as well.

 

[jpappy789]

I broke this up a bit so I could address individual issues.



So now that Kash has admitted that she would like to take Ice out of a game at some point do you intend to change your view on my statements?




You expected me to take you off my list because of your post confirming that you were only speaking hypothetically?



I don't think so. It doesn't usually work that way. You are still on my list because you are scummy. You and Kash both have the same comments in your posts and are both IMO distancing yourselves from Annie. I will adress this a bit later.





My list is evidenced by the fact that Annie turned up scum and was clearly on my list. My list was not solely based on how teams were selected but also by who seemed scummiest at that point in time. There are other newer players who were not on my list because they didn't seem as scummy to me as Annie. Are you still asking me why Annie stands out the most? I think my point was proven when Ice took them out.



C'mon JPap, enough dramatics here. It was day 1 and my best hunches at who was evil based on their gameplay were given. If you don't like my picks that tells me I'm right and that's why you don't like them. I think you and Kash are scrambling at this point because you seem to be on a lot of lists. Presumably on the innocents lists.



So now it's my turn...Here's JPap's list. Notice he mentions Annie "not sure but has me concerned" typical mafia speak when referencing their own temmates in a list. Then he has Lab, Razz, Zaffy & JB. This is one of the worst lists I have seen posted. You don't have myself, Kash or Z listed? Surely ony of us must look scummy to you at this point? Yours is one of tha garbage lists that I believe Ice was referring to previously.



Now here's Kash's "list"...Notice the bolded paragraph. This is the same non-committal mafia flip flop on Annie that JPap has in his list. If Annie is shot you look good but you don't really come out and point the finger and say shoot.



So JPap, how's that? I have no problem with Ice shooting me other than we will be losing Ice at that point in time. The one benefit would be that seconds after the shot is confirmed by Mad I'll take either you or Kash out of the game. I've said that before and I know that's why you are comming after me. Don't forget though. Ice's shot won't take me out of the game

So your reasoning for choosing Annie was because Ice shot him and he came up as mafia? That almost makes sense :headshake2:

You have nothing but these apparent "hunches". Can you show me posts where Z, Zaffy, and Annie are/were scummy? It defeats the purpose now with Annie since Jb has already done the work. Annie was on a lot of lists so saying that you were correct so therefore you shouldn't be called out is absolutely ridiculous. Did you make a case for Annie? Did you even interact with Annie? No, you said that out of the newer players he stood out more. Way to be specific, Dawg.

I've yet to see you pull posts on anyone you found to be suspicious other than your first post, until now when I called you out. By the way, YOU interpreted my posts incorrectly. I was speaking hypothetically therefore I'm scummy? Funny how you said nothing when I cleared things up but now all of a sudden its suspicious.

By the way, the list you pulled was from before he answered my questions. I butted heads with Annie after he responded because his reasoning was downright scummy. I wasn't going to downright say Annie was scum when he had yet to clear up what we were discussing. And my list is garbage? LOL. My list was made based on ACTUAL OBSERVATIONS. Where did your list come from? Oh thats right, some theory on how Mad made the team but nothing other than that and some gut feelings. You never once gave any specific reasoning as to why you chose who you did. I wont tell you why you should choose who you did...that is YOUR job as an innocent. With holding that information does not help at all and its rather scummy but it looked exactly like a mafiasco pulling together a BS list without reading into the game at all. So was Annie the only teammate on that list, or was there another?

So what if my list didnt contain you, Z, or Kash...why the hell would that matter? 1) you had barely said a word at that point 2) I still dont find Z scummy 3) Kash didnt catch my eye until the whole "no list" thing which was after my list.

You're trying to connect me and Kash based on our similar thinking on Annie. Funny that we are somehow on the same team with Annie because we have the same suspect and were noncommittal about it...wait Dawg, what did you say about Annie again? Oh thats right, something about how he stood out more. Wow, way to pull the trigger and shoot...to use your own words. I also remember a post of mine, fairly early I might add, where I specifically mentioned that Annie would be a great first choice to shoot strategically. Hows that for pulling the trigger?

Continue reaching Dawg.

While reading over posts this morning I noticed JB had brought something up.When I reread the quote I noticed something I had missed also.





IF not when she turns out innocent?


Good points on Dawg there Jpap. Any rebuttal Dawg?

Jpap I asked about your question because I thought it to be perfect to try and manipulate any answer they gave. You said you wanted them to reanswer no matter what they said to my question. My question had nothing to do with why I was chosen. I wanted to know why should I shoot them.

Sorry, you are correct. Z asked the question as to why you were chosen.

Kash, who would you hit first? JB or Dawg?
What makes lab and sand on your non mafia list? Ice seems to be on labs tail about being mafia, yet you think she is innocent?
I agree with jpap being a townie, but usually you and him are trying to get each other killed.
Why do you only like the low posters as people you think might be mafia. (there is nothing wrong with that, just want to see where your coming from)

I'm confused...I dont remember a game where I ever went after Kash hard and/or vice versa.

 

[jpappy789]

Here, Dawg, is your interaction with Annie.

My first guess at 4 mafia:

Annie
Zaffy
Kash
Z/JPap

ok so I picked 5. But since I put them both on the same line it counts as 1 right. If I was forced to pick between Z and JPap right now I'd flip a coin.

Since I didn't do this before I'll explain my reasoning behind my picks. I started with the original player list...

Agassizii
Annie
Dawg
Ice
JB
Jpap
Kash
Lab_Rat
RazzleFish
TRS
Z
Zaffy

I took myself and Ice out of the equation since I know the roles. I figured 2 newer players and 2 vets for mafia. Of the newer players Annie and Zaffy stand out as scummier and as for the vets there are only 3 left who could be mafia...Kash, Z and JPap. I understand that for the other players who are not sure of my role my name could be substituted for one of the other vets. But this is the way I see it.

The reason I say 2 vets and 2 newer players are mafia is due to this format I believe roles would definitely have to be hand picked.

Nothing but Annie "stands out as scummier"


Now here are some of my posts concerning Annie.

This would be the case IF we/Ice doesnt have a better option. At this point its damage control...targeting a high poster would be great if they are mafia, but if not we lose Ice and potentially the targeted person the next day. Shooting a low poster is the same but less of a loss if they are innocent. But like you said, a talkative gunslinger is the only way the town can win besides luck. Either way, I see pitfalls.



Hmmm, that sounds like a decent idea Kash. May I suggest Annie as a target?

He plays wonderfully when evil yet still kicks bushes when innocent. If he's mafia, then we're rid of a sneaky player but if he get the gunslinger role then I dont think he will abandon us.

I've only played with him and Agass from that list. And when I played with Agass we we're both evil and he didn't do much. I dont really have faith in the other players given my limited experience with them...

Thoughts?



I agree, which is why Annies post intrigued me so much. I still think low profile and/or newer players would target people like Ice first. Annies assertion that his top three would be me, Kash, and Ice worries me...I'm still waiting on the explanation.

Here is where I suggested Annie be the first shot. Notice that he also had caught my attention as possible scum.

My list would be:

Annie- not sure if mafia, but has me concerned. I think he's a great hit choice, personally.
Lab- that post about wanting to be gunslinger was off. Could be one to choose Ice.
Razz- a no show so far but is viewing
Zaffy/JB- either one fits the mold I laid out of who may have chosen Ice. Neither has done anything notoriously scummy but it strikes me odd that JB and I have been on the same page for the most part. I might just be paranoid but I'm interested in what he has to say next after posting "more later."

Annie still had not explained anything at this point. But again, I believed he made a great hit choice regardless of role.

Ok, I thought the way you worded it that you had more on Lab that you were holding out on.



Annie, this is scummy. You want me and Kash, who you consider to be the biggest threats, out of the town without considering what may happen if we're innocent. Oh, so you would feel fine if we were given the gun? I dont think so. You said it yourself, as mafia you would want us to be given the role early when we have little to go on. Thats completely contradictory. Since you have no real proof suggesting that me and Kash are mafia you come to the weak reasoning that since we weren't chosen that we were the ones choosing. That could be turned on ANY PLAYER other than Ice. I remember a few games back some people were trying to argue that since Ice wasn't hit night one that he was mafia...please...





I agree with this. Maybe in the post where you "vote" for your hit you could explain your reasoning. Otherwise we would be lost as to why you chose that...if they're mafia it could lead somewhere else, and if innocent maybe clear some things up.

Here's where Annie solidified himself as mafia. Maybe I didn't update my list with new reasons but he would have been my Day 1 vote if the format was different.


Thats alot more than I can say about you and Annie, Dawg. What, you mention his name as suspicious once and all of a sudden you expect me to believe that you two are on opposite sides?