Mafia 66: Farmers versus the Railroad - the play

[Fishfriend1]

ugg, kash i can add another reason for voting you : your posts are huge, cant u shorten them? Maybe for, like, a five year old or one of those poor saps from AFV.

 

[Dangerdoll]

It's late so I'll take a few posts all together.

That is correct that getting defensive over something "trivial" (as Pappy phrased it) is a scum tell. But people get defensive either because they've something to hide (as in having an evil role and hoping nobody will notice)... or because they feel vulnerable or intimidated by the person or the situation.

In your case, Wizard, I believe those you've voted before got nervous because of the situation they were in during those games. Sometimes it takes time for new/new-ish players to gain the confidence they need to hold their own against some of the more tactical players in the game.

As an example, Lab Rat got defensive last time around. While she turned out to be innocent in her role, her demonstrated behavior drew suspicion and that was enough at the time to rattle her. Dawg also got defensive during a game you played... and that got him killed for the same reason. Dawg happens to be a very experienced player so to explain what it was that made him seem this way.... I haven't a clue. Sometimes that just happens.

In this game and in Noodles' case here on Day 1, I don't believe for a moment that she acted defensive because I voted her for making that goof. I do believe, however, that she's on the railroad owner's team. And it was THAT in connection with my unexpected vote that caused her to flinch the way she did.

Odin... still hasn't posted anything of substance. Placing a vote only to dash away without any explanation is not going to sit well with the town in any game.



Are you planning to make another appearance in the thread, Annie? I'd like to know what you've concluded about the "Kash/Noods thing."



Dawg, you think Noods got trigger happy with her post just because the game started. I disagree. It's as simple as that. Given her personality, her exuberence, and her preference for being on an evil team instead of being a townie... IMO, it fits her as I've observed her play in past games that what really got her excited and distracted enough to make that mistake was... finding out she got to be evil again.

A lot of players are mildly disappointed when they get that PM saying they're "just a townie" again. That's why most UD's turn out to be innocents instead of mafia. That's also why most active/vocal players are either scum or townie PRs. By and large, it sucks to be innocent as far as most players are concerned.

while I see this post as pretty over analytical, I have to say that you are forgetting one thing. Noods has not been to the board nor the Mafia games in quite a while. While she had been a player who had lots of fun with it, just her being excited to have made it to the game, yes, I can see that.... about most people feeling bummed because they did not get an evil role....disagree whole heartedly. Someone can be just as excited for a PR. And, I didn't think I was set apart from the group but I like the role I am given whatever it is, townie, mafia, or power role... I think that is an unfair statement to make.

 

[Fishfriend1]

OK, this has oficialy passed over my head now. Lets all just lynch someone who hasnt posted alot, like odinthejd. he would be a good vote, al he has done so far is vote for someone and ask a question, all in one post.

 

[Fishfriend1]

Oh, and Kash, do you always post this much when u are evil? Just wondering.

 

[jpappy789]

I came back again to this post, Pappy, because I'm noticing a trend from you in this game that I haven't seen or didn't notice before. I wonder now if you're aware that you're doing this?

I'll get to your later posts, well, later... because as I remember reading them before you based part of your vote against me on the claim that I'm contradicting myself.... as in whether or not my vote was random. That's another topic I'll address when I get there, too.

This is a side-topic, of course, but I've seen you do this 3 times already and wanted to point this out now before I forget to come back to it.

In this post, you say in the first paragraph that you don't believe we should guess about how JL sent out the PMs....



Then in the following paragraph right after... that's exactly what you've done.

You speculate about this a lot, actually. Posted time stamps... wondered about what order JL might send them out in... commented about how/why you do whatever you do when you mod a game... suggested grouping players according to teams... talk about statistical possibilities. Then you end the post by saying how much you hate it when people try to guess what the mod is doing.

If that is a discussion you feel is irrelevant to this game... which I agreed with you on that point before and the game mod's methodology had nothing to do with my vote anyway........ then why type out all that speculation after all? I don't get that. In one breath, you negate any usefulness for that line of thinking. Then in the next, you do on your own what you've just said we shouldn't bother doing at all.

That was my whole point! Theres so much to speculate about that it makes no difference and that is WHY it was irrelevant. I wasn't trying to prove any of those things.

I differ with your opinion here on two points.

First, that my early vote is not based off some joke. Okay, that's true. It wasn't a joke that prompted me to vote Noodles so fast. But so what? Who says we're not allowed to vote our primary suspect (if we have one) whenever the heck we want to?

If there's a mafia game rulebook somewhere that tells us Day 1 votes are always supposed to be made on people cracking jokes in the game, then I haven't seen it. Maybe you could show me that reference.

Next... Seriously, Pappy?

Your game style and Noodles' game style is totally different. In all the games we've played together, I don't believe I've ever seen you become overly defensively or OMGUSsy over any Day 1 vote. Or, when someone's just called you scummy over something you think is trivial. On the contrary, your behavior and your personality in these games is much more collected and controlled than to overreact like that at all. So here, I fail to see any relative or meaningful point to this comparison between you and Noodles, whatsoever.

Because you voted a couple posts in...you said Noods shouldn't have gotten all defensive because of one vote but it wasn't like it was a joke vote. You jumped on her from the get go.

I've been called defensive plenty of times. Not so much OMGUSy but definitely defensive.

1. As I posted before, I also though Coler's question was fine. I expected I'd be questioned about my early vote, so that wasn't an issue for me at all. Him throwing a vote my way along with that question, however, made his position much stronger than it would have beeen otherwise....and I'm curious why.

We've not heard from Coler since then, but I'm sure he'll be along again soon to elaborate. lmao. It is unusual for Coler (I believe) to vote someone while asking them a question -- but not bother to even wait for their answer.

2. So Pappy states he not only attributes Noodles' blunder to... aww shucks, it's just Noods being Noods again. Pappy also feels her over-reaction to my vote was justified. We should all, therefore, just give Noodles a pass on whatever she does or says? I don't agree with that. She's no beginner and she not dim-witted. And she's just as crafty at this game as anyone else.

Why should we do that, Pappy? Noodles is well capable of taking a few votes or accusations in stride and lets them bounce right off. I know that's true, I've seen her do it many times. She's also good at giving as well as she gets. I see no good reason here why Noods should receive special consideration in this game any different than we'd give anyone else in a game like this.

3. Whether or not my vote served any purpose is not a debatable point for me. I'm not here soliciting everyone on whether they like it or not or whether or not they feel it had merit. The vote served my purpose for placing it....

I felt Noods jumped the gun because she found out she got to be evil. I wanted to vote her for that reason and see how Noods would react. Noodles' over-reaction reinforced the opinion I'd made and I think that's very telling. By placing that vote I also not only generated some Day 1 discussion, but I believe I may have flushed out some clues about the roles other players are in.

Whether anyone else agrees with me on this or not wasn't the issue here. I wanted some information early in the game. And I believe I got quite a lot to work with. So I'm happy about that. This is a real tricky format we're in and the town is up against some real slippery and subtle players.

It wasn't my intent to lead any charge from the start of the game to get Noodles lynched. That would be silly. No one jumped onto any train against Noodles... some people have taken either a bold stand defending Noodles, they're taking a low-key persistent position siding with her, or they're ignoring the whole thing as well as they can. For me, that's enough of a purpose all by itself because it's forced most people here to reveal something about their possible connection to someone I believe is on the scum team.. that they would not have done at all if I hadn't voted Noods when I did and for the reason I gave.

Then, having had my original suspicions confirmed by Noodles (and others) to my satisfaction, I withrew the vote expecting we'd go off onto other topics and look at other suspects.

1. Ok.

2. You're elaborating on what I said. I think Noods reaction doesn't point to scum or not scum right now but I never said I was giving her a pass. I believe I said in that exact same post I would keep her reaction in mind.

3. I agree. I think it generated discussion at best.

Pappy, you're persistence trying to defend Noodles or discredit me or make me appear scummy to others is going far beyond your usual pro-town, generally helpful and inquisitive game persona.

As you've already said, you don't even remember much about that part of that previous game. That's because even though you played that game, you didn't get very involved with that part of it. So to go off to skim over some of the arguments posted that were unique to that game based on on a totally different format and slanted according to by whichever role those players were in is being totally unhelpful to the points I've made in more general terms that apply equally to this game, this format, and the roles we are in here.

The bottom line was despite some of those game-specific details, the fact that I was in so much trouble the whole time (not just the first few pages you've skimmed over) was that I posted early before JL said "game on." Not remembering this fact or now pretending that you don't remember it yourself and dredging up a few isolated points posted there as their arguments for lynching me as an attempt to substantiate building a case against me to just trying to protect Noodles now does nothing but confuse this issue.

I'm beginning to think that is your purpose for doing so. For that matter, the signal-to-noise ratio in all your posts this game is much higher than usual. Deliberately confusing simple issues here and cluttering up this thread with unrelated side issues is not being pro-town at all.

Mad wasn't after me because of an edit or his claim that I was lying. Of course I was lying..... I was evil! lmao. Mad was innocent and he was trying to get me lynched because I was scum. He was also being blackmailed to convince others to kill me in that game, too, which also has no bearing on this one.

What does apply to this game is the reason I posted early.. same as Noods here.. in my opinion. And the fact that other innocents voted against me.. not over editing or whatever other arguments I managed to deflect as they posted.. but because (as stated with their votes) that they believed the reason I jumped the start that way was because I was evil that time.

Coler brought up that old game too in the same way... with some mumbo jumbo about content or timing. I've already addressed those points with him. The content was on par with what Noods posted here.. and the actual timing served better in my defense than in the attacks made against me. That's why I posted a dang chart listing the dates and times of those posts in relation to mine and the time stamp from the PM I received.

You really want to make some comparisons between this game and game 51? That's fine then too.

The game mod then was the same person modding this game. I actually did post in that thread (early) right after I received my role saying I was communicating mafia. Back then I was happy to be evil because I didn't know how to approach this game as an innocent yet.

From the time JL posted the player list in that game to the time I received my role and posted "woo hoo" in the thread was a total of 3 minutes. No speculation necessary there... John clearly sent out the mafia role assignments first.

And the elapsed time between John posting the player list in this game to the time Noodles posted "yippeee" was a total of 4 minutes. It doesn't take any stretch of the imagination or wild speculation to guess which PMs the game mod sent us or in which order.. it's the same person.

Kash, don't try to reply unless you yourself remember the facts. Its true, I was not very involved in the game because of RL issues but I read the entire game again last night. Go to the very first post you make and then read Mad's reaction. He asks why you edited it. Then TRS voted you FOR EDITING and it began to spiral down from there. You were defensive because of being called out for editing your post 8 minutes after you posted it.

The reason you posted early could in fact be the same reason Noodles did, but the problem is you are insisting that it is a scum tell when it is not. It happened once and the situations were different as I already demonstrated. Not everyone received PMs that game so it was super obvious that you were a PR that game. The only issue was whether you were scum or not which is why a few people (myself included) were hesitant to lynch you.

As for timing, thats irrelevant. If you want to assume JL PMed in the exact same order as 15 games ago then fine, but I think we've already both said that it's not even an issue of when/how PMs were sent out.

Pappy, whether a vote is random or not depends on what point in time you're looking at. Seriously, it's really hard for anyone to claim that a Day 1 vote made at the time of their very first post in a game is anything but random. Anyone who tried to state otherwise would get laughed out of the game. When I first saw this thread intending to post something at the start of the game, I didn't intend to vote for anyone at all with my initial post. Then I saw Noods posted early and I wondered about it. In the moment it took me to digest that.. think back to the reasons I'd made the same mistake... and decide yes it's totally within Noodles' character to get overly excited and distracted for the same reason I did... I then decided to explain that and vote her. I figured.. why not? It was a fairly random and arbitrary decision to make on the spot like that. So at the time my vote was placed... yes, I do consider it a random choice to make based on the connection I believe existed.

I expected Noodles would either just blow it off like usual (if innocent) or over-react to it (if scum). So in the time that's transpired since my vote was made, Noods' multiple responses and the reactions from others convinced me that I was on to something with that vote. That's what changed a random choice into something more serious.

Kash, you still contradicted yourself. Plain and simple...which I find highly scummy. Random means you draw from a hat or something similar to that in terms of how you pick a vote. You had a reasoning behind it (Noods posted early). But that is getting into semantics.

May I quote what you said in that post I quoted?

"My initial vote against Noodles was not random. When I first got to this thread, I saw what Noodles did in her happy little moment of enthusiasm and I recognized exactly what that meant."

Right then and there you say your vote, initially, was not random but now you're trying to tell me it was. More contradictions. You also said that you didn't decide until Noods started reacting that it wasn't random, which is false because you said before that you knew EXACTLY what it meant, right away.

In the highlighted text quoted above, Pappy, you've paraphrased my statement in a way that completely changes the meaning of what was said.

That's not a good way to present credible arguments.

I did not say if we're able to identify mafia goons early that we should "get rid of them" early. What I said was identifying who they are gives us the best possible advantage we can have. That is definitely NOT the same thing.

Here's my actual quote that you've somehow managed to completely misrepresent. Note the text there highlighted in blue. That's where I also gave reason WHY it's sometimes a better decision not to kill someone immediately even when you already know they're scum.



By asking me here, "why the wait with Noods?" as you've done in your post.... why would you ask me a question like that after you're the one who has omitted the answer I already provided?

You already had my answer to that question before asking it.

So basically you're saying you are not confident enough on the Noods/Coler connection to lynch Noods?

 

[Dagamoth]

a few things to consider and need to get answers to before i reread and cross check posts.

Ok I do understand the concept of kicking bushes and seeing what scurries out.

That being said, I have never played with noods before so I cannot judge her reaction to Kashta.

However, I have noticed that she keeps coming back to it even when she is no longer being questioned about it. :huh:

Labby, you came up with 5, yes count them 5 theories on the subject of kashta/noods. (impressive)

Yet you quickly drop 4 of them and refuse to see any merit in any of them being right. :duh:

You even go so far as to say it is fact that you are right. You state that you are thoroughly convinced noods is scum and then vote to lynch coler because he questioned Kashta's evaluation of the scenario.

Why, if you are convinced someone is scum would you vote someone else? You only changed your vote after caving in to pressure from others calling you on your theory.

DD is sounding like the voice of reason this go round. (another curve ball thrown at me)

FF isn't posting a flurry of nonsense.

I have to agree this is going to be a long game.

Let me ask this, we have those calling Kashta scummy for going after noods so hard so early. We had Dawg doing the same thing last time with JL and FF. Jl turned up innocent as did Dawg after he got lynched for it.

I have not played with Coler and haven't seen much from him.

Nor have I played with Odin.

My dilemma is that I have to vote before I go to work in the morning to avoid UD.

I haven't seen enough to sway me one way or the other yet. I will have to go back through and reread to see if I can make sense of it all.

If lab rat isn't even willing to give any merit to the other possibilities why would she have even brought them up? I think it is everyone's nature to go with what they feel is the most likely scenario but it doesn't mean that they don't give the others any merit. The fact that she mentions other possibilities means she has given them some merit.

FF hasn't been posting a flurry of nonsense but he did have one big slip up :

Well im not sure that Kashta should be in the clear either, she really seemed to target noods. Just seems kind of weird...



LOL, sorry, ima need to get me grade up! Study Study Study Study...sleep, sleep, sleeeeeeep, zzzlol.

But really, ima need to get my dad to let me on the INTERNET. I may not be here for the lynch,so if anyone wants me to change my lynch you will need post it b4 4:00.

I would say it's pretty obvious that FF is on a communicating team. I would have no problem voting for him to get him lynched. Even if he turns out to be an innocent we could look at who was voting with him when he posted that and start to get an idea of who is most likely innocent.

Mafia 66 NOTES

So far ive seen kashta jump on noods, noods got defensive, cole defended noods, LR defended kashta, JB defended noods, I defended noods in 1 post and think Kashta is scum for jumping on someone so soon in the game, no day 1 BS. LR said that scum would never do that on day 1, but then if that is true it would be a great way for scum to hide. Ya, one of my posts says that if u want me to change my lynch i mean make ur arguments b 4 4:00pm. IF U DONT I WONT BE ABLE TO READ THEM. Ok, by post #86 i realized that this is still day 1 people, we're supposed to be BSing each other, not coming up with big *** arguments...

WOW, day 1 is half over and im not a suspect yet. Note to self: DONT POST TOO MUCH!
Lab says she claims innocence when she is innocent, ha, she claimed the same thing (in more words and a roundabout way) last game and she was evil. NEVER CLAIM INNOCENT UNLESS U CAN BACK IT UP WITH POOF LAB! just a suggestion...
Post 107, Lab digs herself a grave... again...
AND she is over confidant, only the railroaders and secret council can be that sure. Well actualy only the Railroaders, the SC cant do that, they dont know who is on their farmer guys team.

Oh boy, I never even knew what Cole had posted LOL. Kash will prob be evil, or really bad good guy lol.

Im starting to think that both noods, kashta, and LR are innocent and confused lol.

Dawg is starting to make sense now, he is also baseing his whole theory off of Kash AND LR being immigrent workers...

Kashta pointed out how in one of my posts i misinterpreted what she said. Sorry Kash lol.

Kashta has *** of now made me think she is scum because she s defending herself WAY to much. Ima keep my vote on her.

Oh boy, i just got to noods mega post...

My response to this post

the evils are always more fun then the innocents...
you know, no one IS defending noods lol, Kashta really hit it big this time, and Noods is really digging a grave for herself...

Where the hell is Annie?! He just comes in day 1 posts 1 post, weird, he may UD, did he post a vote yet?

That has been NOTES, by FF1

Does this make sense to anyone? After FF's slip up he tries to cover it saying he wants to hear theories instead of instructions. FF has shown in previous games that when he talks he gets himself in trouble. If he were ever to be on team with me the very first thing I would say to him is DON"T SPEAK!!!!! After hearing the theories presented FF is saying that he is seeing logic that dawg is busting out and that he is beginning to think that Kash / Lab / Nood are innocent.

Two lines later FF is now saying that Kash has defended herself too much and that makes her scum so FF will be keeping the vote on her... Does that make sense? So if I understand that correctly kash is looking innocent but she has defended herself so she must be scum? Things like that makes me feel that you are railroader FF.

I vote to lynch FF!

 

[Dangerdoll]

Lab Rat, when you're on the innocent side and you don't have an innocent team to bounce ideas around with... please don't post every theory you can imagine in the game thread.

From this point on, if you think someone is a farmer... don't say so or you might help the evils turn that person to their side. If you think someone's a non-existent council member... don't say so or you might prevent the death of a railroad owner when the scum team places their next hit. If you think someone's an immigrant worker... don't say so or that person might get killed too as soon as the target railroad owner is already dead.

The best defense the town has against the railroad owners right now is the fact that they don't know which of us are in which role. Never speculate in the game thread about any townie PR by name. That only serves to tip off the mafia team to possible targets when they're working out their strategies. Always leave this up to the person posting their viewpoints to decide the level of risk/exposure they are prepared to take for themselves.

That said, the theory of yours that I've presented here is theory #1.

As for everyone else... I'm prepared to debate the merits of my position and my voting on their own terms. If someone has a question, ask me and I'll answer it. If someone believes what I say is true, then agree with me. If someone thinks I'm evil and lying to everyone.. then vote to lynch me.

I accept the fact that I've stuck my neck out early on in this game. But whatever happens to me as a result will leave clues behind after I'm gone that will help the town piece together something important that they need to know to defeat the railroad owners.

I disagree with this post too. I am not sure why you are giving instructions to Labby unless you are working overtime in trying to appear as helpful for the town. The problem I see is why hold anything back if you have an idea or thought. The point of the game is to bounce ideas around and to see what and how others can join in the discussion. That's how we figure out who's mafia or not... you instructing labby to hold back on her posts, not liking it one bit. If this is labby's style to kick in bushes or help out the town in the way she feels is how, how can you deem that as wrong....
In this note, you are insisting that she "leave this up to the person posting their viewpoints to decide the level of risk/exposure they are prepared to take for themselves", to me, if we all did this... we are leading everyone to assume their opinions, not share them... what would be the point of the game in the first place.

 

[Dangerdoll]

Pappy, whether a vote is random or not depends on what point in time you're looking at. Seriously, it's really hard for anyone to claim that a Day 1 vote made at the time of their very first post in a game is anything but random. Anyone who tried to state otherwise would get laughed out of the game. When I first saw this thread intending to post something at the start of the game, I didn't intend to vote for anyone at all with my initial post. Then I saw Noods posted early and I wondered about it. In the moment it took me to digest that.. think back to the reasons I'd made the same mistake... and decide yes it's totally within Noodles' character to get overly excited and distracted for the same reason I did... I then decided to explain that and vote her. I figured.. why not? It was a fairly random and arbitrary decision to make on the spot like that. So at the time my vote was placed... yes, I do consider it a random choice to make based on the connection I believe existed.

I expected Noodles would either just blow it off like usual (if innocent) or over-react to it (if scum). So in the time that's transpired since my vote was made, Noods' multiple responses and the reactions from others convinced me that I was on to something with that vote. That's what changed a random choice into something more serious.

I believe the other game that was mentioned where you made the same error, there were different circumstances. That game, only the people with PR's got PM's... thus knew the game started or at least had an early hint.... that makes this game and that game very different.

in your last paragraph here, you say "I expected Noodles would either just blow it off like usual (if innocent) or over-react to it (if scum).". The problem I see here is you are still driving a tunnel visioned bus.... you are assuming people react the same. In another post, you called Noods crafty or something along those lines, yet here you believe she would act the same as everyone else. If she were crafty, don't you think she would try to act differently than what might be expected if she were mafia?

 

[Fishfriend1]

OK, when i said that if u wanted to get me to change my vote you would need to do it b4 4pm i meant make ur cases and do it b4 4pm. If u dont i wont here them till 7:30, and thats too late to do anything.

 

[jpappy789]

It's late so I'll take a few posts all together.



That is correct that getting defensive over something "trivial" (as Pappy phrased it) is a scum tell. But people get defensive either because they've something to hide (as in having an evil role and hoping nobody will notice)... or because they feel vulnerable or intimidated by the person or the situation.

In your case, Wizard, I believe those you've voted before got nervous because of the situation they were in during those games. Sometimes it takes time for new/new-ish players to gain the confidence they need to hold their own against some of the more tactical players in the game.

As an example, Lab Rat got defensive last time around. While she turned out to be innocent in her role, her demonstrated behavior drew suspicion and that was enough at the time to rattle her. Dawg also got defensive during a game you played... and that got him killed for the same reason. Dawg happens to be a very experienced player so to explain what it was that made him seem this way.... I haven't a clue. Sometimes that just happens.

In this game and in Noodles' case here on Day 1, I don't believe for a moment that she acted defensive because I voted her for making that goof. I do believe, however, that she's on the railroad owner's team. And it was THAT in connection with my unexpected vote that caused her to flinch the way she did.

Odin... still hasn't posted anything of substance. Placing a vote only to dash away without any explanation is not going to sit well with the town in any game.



Are you planning to make another appearance in the thread, Annie? I'd like to know what you've concluded about the "Kash/Noods thing."



Dawg, you think Noods got trigger happy with her post just because the game started. I disagree. It's as simple as that. Given her personality, her exuberence, and her preference for being on an evil team instead of being a townie... IMO, it fits her as I've observed her play in past games that what really got her excited and distracted enough to make that mistake was... finding out she got to be evil again.

A lot of players are mildly disappointed when they get that PM saying they're "just a townie" again. That's why most UD's turn out to be innocents instead of mafia. That's also why most active/vocal players are either scum or townie PRs. By and large, it sucks to be innocent as far as most players are concerned.

I find it funny that you can so easily distinguish between a person getting jumpy over a situation (Lab, Dawg) and one getting defensive because of the evil role (Noods). Seriously, Kash. You're speculating on how someone's personality and preference (which you have no clue whether that is entirely correct or not) would influence their playstyle when they get an evil role. More UD's are innocents not because of the role itself but because generally more people are innocent in these setups so statistically it makes sense. Also, scum usually have a team to remind them when to vote. Your argument reminds me of someone who used to play (KOTD) and was called out all the time for UDing when innocent even when he continually said that was not the case.

If lab rat isn't even willing to give any merit to the other possibilities why would she have even brought them up? I think it is everyone's nature to go with what they feel is the most likely scenario but it doesn't mean that they don't give the others any merit. The fact that she mentions other possibilities means she has given them some merit.

FF hasn't been posting a flurry of nonsense but he did have one big slip up :

I would say it's pretty obvious that FF is on a communicating team. I would have no problem voting for him to get him lynched. Even if he turns out to be an innocent we could look at who was voting with him when he posted that and start to get an idea of who is most likely innocent.



Does this make sense to anyone? After FF's slip up he tries to cover it saying he wants to hear theories instead of instructions. FF has shown in previous games that when he talks he gets himself in trouble. If he were ever to be on team with me the very first thing I would say to him is DON"T SPEAK!!!!! After hearing the theories presented FF is saying that he is seeing logic that dawg is busting out and that he is beginning to think that Kash / Lab / Nood are innocent.

Two lines later FF is now saying that Kash has defended herself too much and that makes her scum so FF will be keeping the vote on her... Does that make sense? So if I understand that correctly kash is looking innocent but she has defended herself so she must be scum? Things like that makes me feel that you are railroader FF.

I vote to lynch FF!

Well, we tried to tell FF to speak more last game to seem innocent and that didn't work. Honestly, there's no coaching FF. It's impossible. He slips up either way which makes it hard to judge what he is...I still wish he would learn to play more analytically rather than post every little thought that comes to mind.