Why hasn't anyone bred a smaller goldfish?

[reptileguy2727]

Even the lionheads and ranchus can hit 10".

Are they smaller or just shorter? Given their bulky, compressed build are they really smaller, or do they really weigh just as much as the other breeds but simply not grow quite as long?

 

[Cliff Mayes]

To the things already said it might be useful to reiterate a few of the bits on the table.

Goldfish are very plastic genetically. Due to the large number of fry from a spawn (thousands) and the selection process we have ended up with what we know about. Size, color, physical characteristics and other defining features are all picked (originally to satisfy the markets that existed then) to sell. It is only recent that Goldfish have been looked at from the side, in an aquarium. Goldfish were "designed" to be looked at from the top in a pond or opaque bowl. It is certainly possible to select for smaller size and would probably work but as long as the market buys the bigger ones, that's what will be offered. If you want to and can afford it, go for it. It is probably a lifetime project but it might make sense.

Originally a green Carp the wild colors that we now know as well as the bizarre shapes, etc. are all from the markets demanding more and more strange, not to say unique, varieties. The single tails that can get really big and live a long time can be closest to the original form are best left in a pond. Some pond owners think that the, fat Summer/Fall versions that slim down over Winter are better genetically and in better condition to spawn in the Spring and are the most righteous because they can survive a winter.

Fancy Goldfish will live many years but usually succumb after 5 year or less while Single tails will frequently will live 15 years or more. I have pulled Feeders which are Single tails that are bred as bait out of a Pond in one year that were well in excess of 15 inches and at least 1 ½ pounds. I was amazed but there were dozens of them. Those things tripled in size every month that I looked at them. I got them out by draining the Pond and netting them out with a large fishing net. A lot of space and plenty of food did wonders.

 

[Ichthius]

In general smaller fish are runts and if you select runts to breed a master small race they grow so slow they'd have to raise them for a year instead of a month to get them to market.

Plus most of the market kills their fish before they get big so there's no reason to do it, just sell young fish...

There are a couple strains like Philadelphia Veils that throw runts but they just don't grow and are sickly fish.

In general I think people keep their fish to warm and feed them to much. There are humane was to slow goldfish growth by keeping them cooler and not hammering them with food.

If you want you can grow fish at an inch a month but if you grow a fish at an inch or two a year it will live much longer.

Best fishes
David
www.goldfishgarage.com

 

[PuppyFluffer]

To the things already said it might be useful to reiterate a few of the bits on the table.

Goldfish are very plastic genetically. Due to the large number of fry from a spawn (thousands) and the selection process we have ended up with what we know about. Size, color, physical characteristics and other defining features are all picked (originally to satisfy the markets that existed then) to sell. It is only recent that Goldfish have been looked at from the side, in an aquarium. Goldfish were "designed" to be looked at from the top in a pond or opaque bowl. It is certainly possible to select for smaller size and would probably work but as long as the market buys the bigger ones, that's what will be offered. If you want to and can afford it, go for it. It is probably a lifetime project but it might make sense.

Originally a green Carp the wild colors that we now know as well as the bizarre shapes, etc. are all from the markets demanding more and more strange, not to say unique, varieties. The single tails that can get really big and live a long time can be closest to the original form are best left in a pond. Some pond owners think that the, fat Summer/Fall versions that slim down over Winter are better genetically and in better condition to spawn in the Spring and are the most righteous because they can survive a winter.

Fancy Goldfish will live many years but usually succumb after 5 year or less while Single tails will frequently will live 15 years or more. I have pulled Feeders which are Single tails that are bred as bait out of a Pond in one year that were well in excess of 15 inches and at least 1 ½ pounds. I was amazed but there were dozens of them. Those things tripled in size every month that I looked at them. I got them out by draining the Pond and netting them out with a large fishing net. A lot of space and plenty of food did wonders.

Thanks for the info here.

In the bolded section of the quote above, are you saying that comets are not suitable for indoor aquariums in general? I have been considering a few for a 180 I will set up in the future.

 

[PuppyFluffer]

In general smaller fish are runts and if you select runts to breed a master small race they grow so slow they'd have to raise them for a year instead of a month to get them to market.

Plus most of the market kills their fish before they get big so there's no reason to do it, just sell young fish...

There are a couple strains like Philadelphia Veils that throw runts but they just don't grow and are sickly fish.

In general I think people keep their fish to warm and feed them to much. There are humane was to slow goldfish growth by keeping them cooler and not hammering them with food.

If you want you can grow fish at an inch a month but if you grow a fish at an inch or two a year it will live much longer.

Best fishes
David
www.goldfishgarage.com

Can you expound on this a bit? I'm a total newbie and looking to learn.

 

[THE V]

Thanks for the info here.

In the bolded section of the quote above, are you saying that comets are not suitable for indoor aquariums in general? I have been considering a few for a 180 I will set up in the future.

Single tailed goldfish are not suited for smaller aquariums (55 gallon or smaller) a 180 is plenty large enough to house them. I've got seven comets/common/shubs/sarasa's in my 125 gallon. They are fast swimmers who do best with room to move. They really display a lot of personality when they have room to boogie across the tank.

There are humane was to slow goldfish growth by keeping them cooler and not hammering them with food.

If you want you can grow fish at an inch a month but if you grow a fish at an inch or two a year it will live much longer.

Colder temperatures and less feeding does slow down the goldfish's growth. It also makes the fish weaker and less likely to survive. Goldfish are broadly adapted to temperature and food quantities but there is a limit. Stunting can occur because of low quantities of food not just because of small environments.

There is a balance to keeping any pet healthy. Not to much food and not to little but always plenty of space.

In general smaller fish are runts and if you select runts to breed a master small race they grow so slow they'd have to raise them for a year instead of a month to get them to market.

So very much wrong with the phrasing and logic of this, but I'll refer the poster to some 20th century history.

The obvious answer is why raise them longer? They will be a smaller type of goldfish... sell them smaller. Second thing "runt's" sheesh... smaller size doesn't mean unhealthy, or inability to acquire food. It is possible to select for smaller size and greater health. Look up the average age of most of the small breeds of dogs and compare it to the larger ones. Very common to have a 60% longer lifespan with the little guys.

 

[Ichthius]

Runts are often stunted due to an accumulation of deleterious genes. A great and simpler example of this is black angelfish. If you incross two homozygous fish you'll get 100% homozygous fish which is great for the market but they grow very slow and it takes longer to get them to market. If you do a heterozygous x heterozygous cross you get 1/2 het blacks that grow well, 1/4 homo blacks that grow slow but are still marketable at the small size and 1/4 gold which is a nice fish in itself.

Same thing happens in goldfish. With the Philadelphia Veil-tail if you select to strongly on double anal fins you loose the length in the tail. If the tails grow to fast they can swamp slow growing fish and they just get weak and die.

If you push a strain to hard on a trait especially small size you're going to crash a line.

You can't sell tiny fish, people want a certain size fish (~2inches) but they just don't want it to get 8 inches. If a runt strain takes 3x the time to reach market as a normal fish no one is going to pay the extra $$$ for a goldfish that stays small.

Best fishes
David
www.goldfishgarage.com

 

[Cliff Mayes]

Large fish are frequently kept in aquariums but it is not a wise thing to do regardless of the apparent "success" of keeping the fish alive. Single tail Goldfish can get very large although it is possible to find runts that would fit in a 180. But how can you be sure in a reasonable time frame?

 

[AquatiCreations]

Goldfish are Descendants of carp which are a naturally large fish, and to get them as small as our fancies are now is a commendable accomplishment Considering the world record carp was caught at 87lbs 2oz.

 

[Notophthalmus]

Not the same species...the ancestor of goldfish is the gibbel carp, not the common carp. A much smaller fish, but still pretty hefty.