Tank Crash Disaster - Trying to salvage what I can

[mel_20_20]

Prime is a lifesaver, Bio. I have used it in emergencies and I know it has made the difference many times. Order some from Kensfish.com in the larger quantities. It's much more economical when you do it that way.

Chloramphenicol is hard to get, though a vet may have it in a 1% opthalmic solution for treatment of eye infection in canines. I tried hard to get it to treat Chytridiomycosis in an ADF. My vet was willing to call a compounding pharmacy, as she didn't have it herself, and the pharmacy wanted $70 for it.

Kanamycin and Furan 2 are safe to use together, and in fact they are a powerful combo to treat Columnaris, which this certainly looks to be.

Kanamycin is quickly absorbed by the kidneys and has been used in treatment of Kidney infection, but also lends itself to the destruction of the kidneys with over use, so care is advisable.

Kanamycin is still used, though rarely, to treat certain infections in humans, such as meningitis, in cases where benefit outweighs the risk.

Erythromycin can be effective in fighting Aeromonas infection, but it doesn't work for Columnaris. That's why Maracyn and Maracyn II are prescribed frequently and are usually effective in treating Columnaris, if caught soon enough.

Maracyn is erythromycin and treats the Aeromonas infection that almost always is present with Colunaris. Maracyn II is minocyline which is effective against the Flavobacterium that causes Columnaris.

What are the specks, or bubbles on the fin margins and other areas. They don't look white, like Ich, but are blister-like. Is that how they look to you, Bio?

 

[pinkertd]

I think the bubbles are just air bubbles from the water changes mel. Anna fingers crossed for you! I think you are right, when I saw the fins of the gudgeons tattered like that I thought of ammonia doing that.

 

[mel_20_20]

It would be wonderful if this is only injury caused by ammonia. What was your ammo level at the time, do you know Anna?

I am concerned with the appearance of the mouth on this pic:



View attachment gudgeon mouth 2.bmp

Does it look like the mouth is eroded? It's hard to see behind those bubbles.

Columnaris can cause erosion of the mouth, but probably ammonia burn can look like that. I haven't seen ammonia burns in person, not yet, but I'm human, too, Anna, and things happen. I imagine I'll see it some day.

Anna, please don't beat yourself up about this. You are a most excellent fishkeeper. Accidents just happen, sometimes. That fish was stuck behind the heater. It's so easy to fail to see a fish that is stuck or wedged in a tight spot. I've nearly gone nuts looking for an Oto that I can't find, and then I find him in the weirdest places that you can't see unless you practically stand on your head.

 

[Cerianthus]

Prime is a lifesaver, Bio. I have used it in emergencies and I know it has made the difference many times. Order some from Kensfish.com in the larger quantities. It's much more economical when you do it that way.
I achieved good result without depending on such products. I guess I am an old timer! Not even Stresscoat , Novaqua nor its equivalents.. At least tried most products avail when I was really into this filed and discovered i can omit most additives by utilizing good old physical practices.

Chloramphenicol is hard to get, though a vet may have it in a 1% opthalmic solution for treatment of eye infection in canines. I tried hard to get it to treat Chytridiomycosis in an ADF. My vet was willing to call a compounding pharmacy, as she didn't have it herself, and the pharmacy wanted $70 for it.
I hope with prescription! If not, that pharmacy should not be in business. $70 dollars is nothing. How much you can get for $70 is the question with prescription. This can be wonder drug for most common or should I say some bacterial fish diseases w/o going in detail. Again availability and legality of usage should be determined by Pros.

Kanamycin and Furan 2 are safe to use together, and in fact they are a powerful combo to treat Columnaris, which this certainly looks to be.
Spectrogram, although discontinued, was one of such combo readily avail. Rarely needed this med though!. Overuse may have its own side-effect on liver, if memory serves.

Kanamycin is quickly absorbed by the kidneys and has been used in treatment of Kidney infection, but also lends itself to the destruction of the kidneys with over use, so care is advisable.
Just keep it mind its ototoxicity & nephrotoxicity

Kanamycin is still used, though rarely, to treat certain infections in humans, such as meningitis, in cases where benefit outweighs the risk.
Viral or bactrial? Let's not get too involved with human medicine. I will leave this up to each individual medical pros. Just brought up the subject to point out that no need to mix with foods for ingestion of med to treat external problems.. I dont see any progressive or acute internal hemmorraghing from the pics. I am sure BMS can render better judgement on this issue which can be followed with proper treatment.

Erythromycin can be effective in fighting Aeromonas infection, but it doesn't work for Columnaris. That's why Maracyn and Maracyn II are prescribed frequently and are usually effective in treating Columnaris, if caught soon enough.
Dont believe in such practices (abuse,imo) when one can use one or the other according to symptoms. I read enough failures on many forums/threads of mixing I & II and not too mention the cost involved with large tank ( I read one using close $100 for one treatment without success). I also read success form such treatment. IMO, one or the other may have yielded the same success.

Maracyn is erythromycin and treats the Aeromonas infection that almost always is present with Colunaris. Maracyn II is minocyline which is effective against the Flavobacterium that causes Columnaris.
Totally disagree as it may and/or it may not from my experiences. I will decide case by case. I rarely require to use two different kind of antibiotics at the same time. I did use and achieved good result using certain anti parasitic med with antibiotics.
Did require some research on property of solubility of med but dont remember the detail of such properties nor I can find the my data anymore. .
Ive seen enough abuse in wholesale level and retail level. Perhaps most meds are loosing its effectiveness due to such overuse??? Just my opinion!

What are the specks, or bubbles on the fin margins and other areas. They don't look white, like Ich, but are blister-like. Is that how they look to you, Bio?

Have seen such symptoms and treated on numerous occassions.

BMS, It is known fact that many diseases share similar symptoms. No one can say for sure what it is w/ 100% certainty. Since you have started EM treatment, why not give it a chance.
You can have other med avail thus you can alter the methods when you determine such is necessary.

Good luck!

Daily pics update would be nice!

 

[mel_20_20]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mel_20_20
Prime is a lifesaver, Bio. I have used it in emergencies and I know it has made the difference many times. Order some from Kensfish.com in the larger quantities. It's much more economical when you do it that way.
I achieved good result without depending on such products. I guess I am an old timer! Not even Stresscoat , Novaqua nor its equivalents.. At least tried most products avail when I was really into this filed and discovered i can omit most additives by utilizing good old physical practices.

It would be very good if we could get away without using conditioners, but with the addition of chlorine and chloramines to our tap water for most of us conditioners are necessary. It is especially true in the matter of chloramine, which doesn't "off gas" as chlorine does.

The real benefit to Prime, in my opinion, is those times when you find a spike in ammonia and/or nitrite and, as in Biomajor's case, you have to rush out to work or school and yet need to address the emergency right now. Being unable to do immediate big water changes, dosing Prime can give you breathing room, protecting your fish from the toxic effects of ammonia and nitrite until you can get back home and do the big water changes.

Chloramphenicol is hard to get, though a vet may have it in a 1% opthalmic solution for treatment of eye infection in canines. I tried hard to get it to treat Chytridiomycosis in an ADF. My vet was willing to call a compounding pharmacy, as she didn't have it herself, and the pharmacy wanted $70 for it.
I hope with prescription! If not, that pharmacy should not be in business. $70 dollars is nothing. How much you can get for $70 is the question with prescription. This can be wonder drug for most common or should I say some bacterial fish diseases w/o going in detail. Again availability and legality of usage should be determined by Pros.

I may have not communicated this very well, I'm sorry for that.
This was not any illegal activity. I would never do that.

You must have missed the part where I said "my vet was willing to call a compounding pharmacy." She was prescribing it for me, to be compounded at the pharmacy.

My vet did deem it necessary and this compounding pharmacy frequently compounds prescriptions for veterinarians for use in treatment of animals.

Their price of $70 for a 5mL bottle of Chloramphenocol 1% opthalmic solution was pretty tough for me, treating a $2.99 African Dwarf frog. (hubby had a fit... I have poured a lot of money into this hobby that I truly love)

Kanamycin and Furan 2 are safe to use together, and in fact they are a powerful combo to treat Columnaris, which this certainly looks to be.
Spectrogram, although discontinued, was one of such combo readily avail. Rarely needed this med though!. Overuse may have its own side-effect on liver, if memory serves.

Kanamycin is quickly absorbed by the kidneys and has been used in treatment of Kidney infection, but also lends itself to the destruction of the kidneys with over use, so care is advisable.
Just keep it mind its ototoxicity & nephrotoxicity

Yes, for sure, great care must be used.

Kanamycin is still used, though rarely, to treat certain infections in humans, such as meningitis, in cases where benefit outweighs the risk.
Viral or bactrial? Let's not get too involved with human medicine. I will leave this up to each individual medical pros. Just brought up the subject to point out that no need to mix with foods for ingestion of med to treat external problems.. I dont see any progressive or acute internal hemmorraghing from the pics. I am sure BMS can render better judgement on this issue which can be followed with proper treatment.

Antibiotics don't work on viral infections, (and there are very few anti-virals out there) but as a last resort kind of treatment Kanamycin is used sometimes. I'm sure the doctors know best on when to prescribe that, lol, I agree.

Erythromycin can be effective in fighting Aeromonas infection, but it doesn't work for Columnaris. That's why Maracyn and Maracyn II are prescribed frequently and are usually effective in treating Columnaris, if caught soon enough.
Dont believe in such practices (abuse,imo) when one can use one or the other according to symptoms. I read enough failures on many forums/threads of mixing I & II and not too mention the cost involved with large tank ( I read one using close $100 for one treatment without success). I also read success form such treatment. IMO, one or the other may have yielded the same success.

Maracyn is erythromycin and treats the Aeromonas infection that almost always is present with Colunaris. Maracyn II is minocyline which is effective against the Flavobacterium that causes Columnaris.
Totally disagree as it may and/or it may not from my experiences. I will decide case by case. I rarely require to use two different kind of antibiotics at the same time. I did use and achieved good result using certain anti parasitic med with antibiotics.
Did require some research on property of solubility of med but dont remember the detail of such properties nor I can find the my data anymore. .
Ive seen enough abuse in wholesale level and retail level. Perhaps most meds are loosing its effectiveness due to such overuse??? Just my opinion!

I think you are very accurate in saying that antibiotics are overused and abused, and this is why we see so many drug resistant bacteria.

The only basis for my opinion on the use of Maracyn and Maracyn II is from vet recommendations to treat the Flavobacterium infection and the, usually, concomitant Aeromonas infection, which, according to opinion of many researchers in scholarly articles I've read, is believed to actually be the bacteria that ultimately kills the fish

What are the specks, or bubbles on the fin margins and other areas. They don't look white, like Ich, but are blister-like. Is that how they look to you, Bio?

Have seen such symptoms and treated on numerous occassions.

BMS, It is known fact that many diseases share similar symptoms. No one can say for sure what it is w/ 100% certainty. Since you have started EM treatment, why not give it a chance.
You can have other med avail thus you can alter the methods when you determine such is necessary.

I agree Cerianthus, we can't always know what bacteria, parasite, or virus our poor sick fish are suffering with, we just do the best we can in a sort of trial and error way, based on appearance and our own experience and the experience of others. I know you have vast experience with all kinds of illnesses, diseases, and water chemistry issues.

I wish we all had microscopes and could do gram staining and identiy the specific pathogen causing illness in our fish. I really do believe I could learn to do that, but I don't have the big bucks for a really adequate microscope to use.

I agree the Erythromycin may be just what the doctor ordered, and I would certainly finish the course, especially if the major issue is ammonia burns with possible early aeromonas bacterial infection. However, at the first sign that this may be Columnaris I would switch to a more effective antibiotic in that case, or perhaps just add that to the Erythromycin protocol.

I, too, am a big believer in huge, frequent water changes, keeping their water pristine. The best way to treat; at least the first action we can safely take in treating any fish that is sick. After that, we just have to make our best, well considered and well advised judgement regarding what's wrong with our fish and what we need to do to help them.

It's good to have you here on AC, your experience and advice has been so helpful on so many ocassions.

Good luck!

Daily pics update would be nice!

Quote
Quick Reply

 

[bunnyhunter42]

mel can bring individual shrimp back from there deathbeds so pretty much stick with what she says and you should pull through it!

 

[NorthcoastGirl]

"Columnaris can cause erosion of the mouth, but probably ammonia burn can look like that. I haven't seen ammonia burns in person, not yet, but I'm human, too, Anna, and things happen. I imagine I'll see it some day.

Anna, please don't beat yourself up about this. You are a most excellent fishkeeper. Accidents just happen, sometimes. That fish was stuck behind the heater. It's so easy to fail to see a fish that is stuck or wedged in a tight spot. I've nearly gone nuts looking for an Oto that I can't find, and then I find him in the weirdest places that you can't see unless you practically stand on your head. "


My columnaris outbreak ended up eroding one of my tetra's eyes, poor little girl. And it all happened so quickly! Fish medical care and diagnostics is the most diffilcult part of the hobby, imo. Since we usually have to do it ourselves. Thank goodness for the more experienced keepers like you and cerianthus to help us newbies muddle through.

 

[Kivstev]

From those pics I don't really see any signs of Columnaris. I'm not saying it's not there, but I can't see it.

Interesting comments from Mel and Cerianthus. Let me add my 6 cents.

1) Oxytetracycline can be very good to treat Columnaris according to most scientific literature. Tetracycline and erythromycin are ineffective according to modern scientific literature, as well as my own experience. Minocycline (Maracyn 2) seems to be fairly useless in the strains I have tried to treat. I believe this a good example of an antibiotic that has been "overused", and to which Columnaris is often resistant in many cases. Kanamycin may be on it's way to becoming the next antibiotic that is becoming overused and useless in treating flavobacterium as its potency seems to be in decline from what I've read and witnessed.

2)Since Kanamycin is rapidly absorbed by the fish through water (unlike most common aquatic antibiotics), only under special circumstance should it administered with food IMO. In most circumstances there is simply not enough of a need to do so if properly dosed in the water.

3)One of the reasons Chloramphenicol is most likely a very effective drug is that it is not commonly used and therefore the bacterial strains have not yet developed any immunity.

4)If an antibiotic is started one should give it a chance to work for a minimum of four or five days, unless there is an immediate risk of death to the fish or a misdiagnosis is fairly certain. If there is absolutely no improvement in that time it would be wise to change methods/treatment. In BioM's case adding M2 to the M1 would make perfect sense - although I'm not a fan of M2 for Columnaris unless it is a very minor infection.

5)One should not be too hesitant to experiment in treating a fish where death is likely imminent. A certain combo or dosage that is not 'by the book' may work where the norm does not. One should be prepared and understand the risks, of course.

6)One should make the best judgment for their fish using all information available to them. This isn't 1990 where we have to go to the library or pay a 'professional' for an opinion. The 'Net is full of information (accurate as well as erroneous), and one should always research and cross reference information for oneself. To follow only one source's direction w/o questioning the advice is irresponsible.

Prime is a lifesaver, Bio. I have used it in emergencies and I know it has made the difference many times. Order some from Kensfish.com in the larger quantities. It's much more economical when you do it that way.
I achieved good result without depending on such products. I guess I am an old timer! Not even Stresscoat , Novaqua nor its equivalents.. At least tried most products avail when I was really into this filed and discovered i can omit most additives by utilizing good old physical practices.

Chloramphenicol is hard to get, though a vet may have it in a 1% opthalmic solution for treatment of eye infection in canines. I tried hard to get it to treat Chytridiomycosis in an ADF. My vet was willing to call a compounding pharmacy, as she didn't have it herself, and the pharmacy wanted $70 for it.
I hope with prescription! If not, that pharmacy should not be in business. $70 dollars is nothing. How much you can get for $70 is the question with prescription. This can be wonder drug for most common or should I say some bacterial fish diseases w/o going in detail. Again availability and legality of usage should be determined by Pros.

Kanamycin and Furan 2 are safe to use together, and in fact they are a powerful combo to treat Columnaris, which this certainly looks to be.
Spectrogram, although discontinued, was one of such combo readily avail. Rarely needed this med though!. Overuse may have its own side-effect on liver, if memory serves.

Kanamycin is quickly absorbed by the kidneys and has been used in treatment of Kidney infection, but also lends itself to the destruction of the kidneys with over use, so care is advisable.
Just keep it mind its ototoxicity & nephrotoxicity

Kanamycin is still used, though rarely, to treat certain infections in humans, such as meningitis, in cases where benefit outweighs the risk.
Viral or bactrial? Let's not get too involved with human medicine. I will leave this up to each individual medical pros. Just brought up the subject to point out that no need to mix with foods for ingestion of med to treat external problems.. I dont see any progressive or acute internal hemmorraghing from the pics. I am sure BMS can render better judgement on this issue which can be followed with proper treatment.

Erythromycin can be effective in fighting Aeromonas infection, but it doesn't work for Columnaris. That's why Maracyn and Maracyn II are prescribed frequently and are usually effective in treating Columnaris, if caught soon enough.
Dont believe in such practices (abuse,imo) when one can use one or the other according to symptoms. I read enough failures on many forums/threads of mixing I & II and not too mention the cost involved with large tank ( I read one using close $100 for one treatment without success). I also read success form such treatment. IMO, one or the other may have yielded the same success.

Maracyn is erythromycin and treats the Aeromonas infection that almost always is present with Colunaris. Maracyn II is minocyline which is effective against the Flavobacterium that causes Columnaris.
Totally disagree as it may and/or it may not from my experiences. I will decide case by case. I rarely require to use two different kind of antibiotics at the same time. I did use and achieved good result using certain anti parasitic med with antibiotics.
Did require some research on property of solubility of med but dont remember the detail of such properties nor I can find the my data anymore. .
Ive seen enough abuse in wholesale level and retail level. Perhaps most meds are loosing its effectiveness due to such overuse??? Just my opinion!

What are the specks, or bubbles on the fin margins and other areas. They don't look white, like Ich, but are blister-like. Is that how they look to you, Bio?

 

[Kivstev]

BioMajorStudent: Questions

You say the missing fish was 'covered' in Columnaris. Is the whitish area in the left part of the pic above what you are referring to?

Do you see any 'cotton like fibre' coming from any of the fish's mouths?

You say that you put the sick Gudgeon in the Neon's hospital tank? If you did that is not wise as whatever the Neon's had may still be loaded with pathogens. The Erythromycin that was in there has most likely dissipated and whereas the pathogens most likely have not. You should always sterilize a hospital tank after use (I use a 15:1 water/bleach solution and let it soak in there a few hours, and then rinse it out very well before letting it dry completely.). As I mentioned in another thread - I've made that mistake and it cost me.

You say the ammonia must have spiked by adding the new fish. Did you test the water to confirm this? Many cases of Flavobacteria I've witness were caused by the stress of moving and handling. Not to say an ammonia spike would not have caused it as any stress can trigger it - like overcrowding.

What did you have in the 10G before you put the 2 new Gudgeons in there?

 

[mel_20_20]

Kivstev makes a lot of excellent observations.

I have read many cases where the Maracyn and Maracyn II combo do not work, and obviously a resistant strain of Columnaris is involved, though I successfully used that combo in a case of Columnaris.

In this forum, another member has gone through ten days with the Maracyn/Maracyn II combo to no effect, treating Columnaris, and is now seeing improvement with the Furan 2/Kanamycin combo, thankfully, though she's not out of the woods yet.

I'm sure the Furan 2/Kanamycin combo's effectiveness will be on the wane, as the bacteria develop resistance to that.

Chloramphenicol shows great promise, however it is essentially banned for all but emergency use in humans, and for use in aquaria sans proper authorization.

Here's an FDA alert regarding Chloramphenicol. It refers to aplastic anemia as a significantly frequent and devastating sequelae to it's use in humans, and we can imagine that its frequent use in aquaria can lead to levels in our drinking water with potential hazard to humans.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/cms_ia/importalert_208.html

"(Note: This import alert represents the Agency's current guidance to FDA field personnel regarding the manufacturer(s) and/or products(s) at issue. It does not create or confer any rights for or on any person, and does not operate to bind FDA or the public).

Import Alert # 68-01
Published Date: 10/02/2009
Type: DWPE
Import Alert Name:
"Detention Without Physical Examination Of Chloramphenicol"

Reason for Alert:
Marketing of chloramphenicol for aquarium fish has occurred for a number of years. Like many other aquarium fish products, chloramphenicol was permitted to be marketed without formal approval, although, it has never been demonstrated to be safe and effective for use in aquarium fish.

It is now recognized that a potential health risk exists due to a causal relationship between use of chloramphenicol and the development of a usually irreversible aplastic anemia in man. The case fatality rate is approximately 70%, and those who recover experience a high incidence of acute leukemia. This irreversible aplastic anemia does not seem to be related to the frequency or level of exposure to the drug. In fact, there appears to be a significant subgroup of the population with an apparent predisposed sensitivity to chloramphenicol. This type of blood dyscrasia has been associated with extremely low levels of exposure to the drug. An example is a rancher diagnosed as having aplastic anemia four months after he began treating his cattle with chloramphenicol. The treatment of aquarium fish with chloramphenicol presents the same health risk.

In view of the public health risk and the fact the safety and effectiveness of chloramphenicol in aquarium fish has not been established, CVM has concluded that all chloramphenicol products intended for aquarium use are New Animal Drugs (NAD's) which require approved NADA's for legal marketing.

We have previously permitted the importation of chloramphenicol if labeling or import records indicated the use only in aquarium fish. No further entries of either bulk chloramphenicol powder, capsules or tablets, or retail packaged chloramphenicol for any use should be permitted unless there is an exemption (INAD) or approved new animal drug application (NADA) on file. (Bulk chloramphenicol is also covered under Import Alert #68-09 as one of the common bulk chemicals that will not be released until or unless it is to be shipped to a holder of an approved NADA.

Guidance:
Districts may detain all entries of chloramphenicol intended for animal drug use (including those destined for use on aquarium fish) unless there is an exemption (INAD) or an approved new animal drug application (NADA) on file."

Product Description:
Chloramphenicol
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is why it is extremely difficult to get your hands on Chloramphenicol, and dangerous to do so, as well, though I tried to get it myself. If we do use it, we should be extremely careful to not expose ourselves to potential serious harm to ourselves, and take great care to dispose of it in a way that prevents contamination of our drinking water.

Having said all that, I hope this is not Columnaris; it is extremely difficult to make diagnoses looking at photos that are not as clear as we would wish.

Such is the dilemma. They just won't pose for us to get a good shot, that is except for Rich's fish, and not many of us have his camera and his excellent skills.

We have to rely on the detailed description provided by the fishkeeper, or ourselves when seeking the help of others, and seeing the signs and symptoms clearly can be difficult, too, in person - when the fishies don't want to cooperate and hold still long enough for a good look.