Tetra with shimmies?

[Stormyrose786]

How many cories? What is this loach? Pic of the loach? You have got 4 tetras only in a 20?? First of tetras should b kept in groups 6 or more and second, you could put in more of them

okay no prob.

Sorry, I might be wrong, that might be the pleco...one is dark & wide & flat, & the other is striped, with a longer body, pointed mouth(?).

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Shimmying varyies based on the species. There is a type of shimmy specific to live bearers. The cause for this is:

Shimmies or livebearer disease
Symptoms are when your fish continually rock from side to side.
This is thought to be because many livebearers prefer hard alkaline water with some salt added. Livebearers kept in soft acidic water will over time develop this disease.
Treat by adding some salt to the aquarium and find ways of adjusting the pH and hardness of the water. Perhaps by the use of crush coral sand or dolomite sand.

from https://www.thefishdoctor.co.uk/med...er-illnesses-how-to-recognise-and-treat-them/

Tetras are not livebearers and clearly prefer the type of water that would cause the shimmiies in livebearers. Therefore, you should look to another cause for your tetra. As I wrote initially, this can be any number of things. .

I would be way more concerned about why your parameters changed so radically that fast. This is most certainly not normal.

For the most part, pH is a less important factor than TDS/conductivity. Even working with the more limited KH and GH you can see a lot of what is needed to get an idea what is going on in the tank.

There is still way too little information here to be able to have any idea what is going on. Info about tap and tanks parameters to include all nitrogen complex readings are needed as well as tank temperature and what maintenance you do and how often. Also what are you feeding?

From what you keep saying i get the impression your tap water is pretty nasty and may be the cause. Until you provide a lot more info, anything I say is a guess.

One last comment. The cycle itself produces nitruc acid (nitrate). It is the cause of old tank syndrome. The acid burns up the KH and then the pH drops. At the same time the GH goes up. I just don't get the nature and intensity of the swings you report. I am starting not to trust the test numbers you are reporting????

 

[Stormyrose786]

Shimmying varyies based on the species. There is a type of shimmy specific to live bearers. The cause for this is:

from https://www.thefishdoctor.co.uk/med...er-illnesses-how-to-recognise-and-treat-them/

Tetras are not livebearers and clearly prefer the type of water that would cause the shimmiies in livebearers. Therefore, you should look to another cause for your tetra. As I wrote initially, this can be any number of things. .

I would be way more concerned about why your parameters changed so radically that fast. This is most certainly not normal.

For the most part, pH is a less important factor than TDS/conductivity. Even working with the more limited KH and GH you can see a lot of what is needed to get an idea what is going on in the tank.

There is still way too little information here to be able to have any idea what is going on. Info about tap and tanks parameters to include all nitrogen complex readings are needed as well as tank temperature and what maintenance you do and how often. Also what are you feeding?

From what you keep saying i get the impression your tap water is pretty nasty and may be the cause. Until you provide a lot more info, anything I say is a guess.

One last comment. The cycle itself produces nitruc acid (nitrate). It is the cause of old tank syndrome. The acid burns up the KH and then the pH drops. At the same time the GH goes up. I just don't get the nature and intensity of the swings you report. I am starting not to trust the test numbers you are reporting????

The numbers are right, according to what came with the test kit. I do weekly water changes, & keep good parameters. I clean if needed, change filters as needed. I feed them flakes & bottom feeder food, & about once a week, they get bloodworms.

Maybe it is something else with the tetra. Either way, watching it tonight, I don't expect it to be alive tomorrow. I did move it to another tank, though, with good parameters.

Temperature usually stays about 78°. As for testing anything other than what I mentioned, I have no way right now to do that.

My tap water has lime, which is why we filter it. And like I saud, I usually mix it with

Shimmying varyies based on the species. There is a type of shimmy specific to live bearers. The cause for this is:

from https://www.thefishdoctor.co.uk/med...er-illnesses-how-to-recognise-and-treat-them/

Tetras are not livebearers and clearly prefer the type of water that would cause the shimmiies in livebearers. Therefore, you should look to another cause for your tetra. As I wrote initially, this can be any number of things. .

I would be way more concerned about why your parameters changed so radically that fast. This is most certainly not normal.

For the most part, pH is a less important factor than TDS/conductivity. Even working with the more limited KH and GH you can see a lot of what is needed to get an idea what is going on in the tank.

There is still way too little information here to be able to have any idea what is going on. Info about tap and tanks parameters to include all nitrogen complex readings are needed as well as tank temperature and what maintenance you do and how often. Also what are you feeding?

From what you keep saying i get the impression your tap water is pretty nasty and may be the cause. Until you provide a lot more info, anything I say is a guess.

One last comment. The cycle itself produces nitruc acid (nitrate). It is the cause of old tank syndrome. The acid burns up the KH and then the pH drops. At the same time the GH goes up. I just don't get the nature and intensity of the swings you report. I am starting not to trust the test numbers you are reporting????

I get my numbers from the information included with my test kits. I don't know why there was a sudden drop. The only thing I did different...I used AmQuel 3 days in a row for the nitrates. Maybe that was too much? I don't know. Normally, if there is a problem, as there has been before with my other tank, it only takes one dose. But it didn't work that way this time.

Maybe it is something different with the tetra. I moved it to the other tank, which has good parameters, but I don't expect it to be alive tomorrow.

I do weekly water changes, anywhere from 25% to 50%. I normally use a mixture of RO water & my filtered tap water. My water has lime in it, which is why we filter it. My parameters are normally stable.

I don't have a way right now to test anything other than what I mentioned.

And like I said, my numbers have stayed within the same very small range for the past 10 months. This is the only time my pH has been below 7.0. As for my KH, sometimes it will drop to 4 or 5, but usually stays at 6. When it does drop, I use my filtered tap water, & it brings it back up.

I don't live alone, so I had to go ahead & do something earlier, so I did a 50% wc, & I will test it again tomorrow.

 

[Stormyrose786]

I just realized I answered that twice...sorry...

So...I did a 50% wc last night. Tonight, my pH is back to normal, but it was a big jump, so I know it could have a negative effect on the fish, unfortunately. I will watch them. My KH is between 50ppm & 100ppm, & GH is between 100ppm & 200ppm.

Thanks for the info & suggestions - all of you.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I have aghard time believing the claims from SeaChem and Kordom about their detoxifying everything, but that it can still be used by the bacteria. I knoiw this is the case with the ammonia/ammonium but this is not using the parts is is because they have receptor for ammonium as well in some cases. However, I could not find either science or a patent explaining it. Kordon states that Amquel+ breaks the molecules apart and the bacteria will uses the pieces and not "know" the difference. This is something I have not encountered in the lietrature

However, what is there to break? Nitrogen and oxygen and the result is an ion which is NO⁻ ₂ . This means there are more electrons than protons. Nitrate is NO⁻ ₃, and also has a negative charge. A lot of what happens in water happens because things there readily donates prtons or give up electrons which creates a charge. This what makes an ion. The difference between nitrite and nitrate is the addition of one more O. Both nitrite and nitrate have -1 charge.

My problem with the above is that I cannot find independent information about how it all happens. All Seachem states is they know it happens and has no clue how. So, I would really like to know how this works from the scientific community not connected to the products.

I have few issues using medications when needed or fertilizers for plants. However, other chemicals are things I have avoided. I have well water so I never need to use dechlor. I have actually had a person come to my house with a SUV full of 5 gal buckets to take some of my water for her tanks.

I know Seachem Prime is an oxygen reducer, I would assume so is Amquel +. Seachem cautions against overdosing Prime and Excel at the same time. But I am not aware or further potential issues. I also do not believe in changing water for nitrite reduction, chloride is the way to go. I also eliminated th eneed for cycling tanks by running my own bio-farm. I used to keep enough cycled filters to be able to start up to 6-8 20 gal. multiples- or a single 125 - 150+. I never use chemicals for cycling issues because I have not had any since my first tank which I did with fish. Since then it has been all fishless. But I doubt dechlor is at the root of the problem.

I am not certain, but if I had the sort of tap water you do, I think I would probably run all ro/di and remineralize it . I would not use any of the tap. If I am understanding right, the amount of lime in the water can change or that other parameters do?

If the only fish in the tank in trouble is the lone tetra, that would suggest that the issue is not systematic but most likely specific to that one fish. We do not often thing of fish in this way. But just like we can have a heart attack or a storke so can an animal including a fish. Just like occasionaly a person is born with an abnormality issue or a genetic defect, so too can this happen to animals. There is no way to know when we find a dead fish it it was something like this or something with the potential to threaten other fish in a tank.

 

[Stormyrose786]

I have aghard time believing the claims from SeaChem and Kordom about their detoxifying everything, but that it can still be used by the bacteria. I knoiw this is the case with the ammonia/ammonium but this is not using the parts is is because they have receptor for ammonium as well in some cases. However, I could not find either science or a patent explaining it. Kordon states that Amquel+ breaks the molecules apart and the bacteria will uses the pieces and not "know" the difference. This is something I have not encountered in the lietrature

However, what is there to break? Nitrogen and oxygen and the result is an ion which is NO⁻ ₂ . This means there are more electrons than protons. Nitrate is NO⁻ ₃, and also has a negative charge. A lot of what happens in water happens because things there readily donates prtons or give up electrons which creates a charge. This what makes an ion. The difference between nitrite and nitrate is the addition of one more O. Both nitrite and nitrate have -1 charge.

My problem with the above is that I cannot find independent information about how it all happens. All Seachem states is they know it happens and has no clue how. So, I would really like to know how this works from the scientific community not connected to the products.

I have few issues using medications when needed or fertilizers for plants. However, other chemicals are things I have avoided. I have well water so I never need to use dechlor. I have actually had a person come to my house with a SUV full of 5 gal buckets to take some of my water for her tanks.

I know Seachem Prime is an oxygen reducer, I would assume so is Amquel +. Seachem cautions against overdosing Prime and Excel at the same time. But I am not aware or further potential issues. I also do not believe in changing water for nitrite reduction, chloride is the way to go. I also eliminated th eneed for cycling tanks by running my own bio-farm. I used to keep enough cycled filters to be able to start up to 6-8 20 gal. multiples- or a single 125 - 150+. I never use chemicals for cycling issues because I have not had any since my first tank which I did with fish. Since then it has been all fishless. But I doubt dechlor is at the root of the problem.

I am not certain, but if I had the sort of tap water you do, I think I would probably run all ro/di and remineralize it . I would not use any of the tap. If I am understanding right, the amount of lime in the water can change or that other parameters do?

If the only fish in the tank in trouble is the lone tetra, that would suggest that the issue is not systematic but most likely specific to that one fish. We do not often thing of fish in this way. But just like we can have a heart attack or a storke so can an animal including a fish. Just like occasionaly a person is born with an abnormality issue or a genetic defect, so too can this happen to animals. There is no way to know when we find a dead fish it it was something like this or something with the potential to threaten other fish in a tank.

Thanks, I still am not sure what happened, but all the numbers are back to what they normally are.

I appreciate the information, gives me a lot to consider.

The tetra, though, is still alive, & still doing it's whatever it is (looks like dancing). I am sure it hasn't eaten in at least 3 days. I don't know how much longer it can survive.

But I think you're right, that it's just this one fish. If there is a way to treat it, what would I use? There is too much information on the internet. Nothing is showing on the outside - none of the diseases I've read about. So if it is internal parasites, how do you treat that? At least for future reference...

 

[Stormyrose786]

Actually, symptoms I've read about don't apply to this fish. It looks normal, & the only abnormal action is this whatever it is - shimmying, vibrating, something.

So maybe it's something worse?

 

[Stormyrose786]

I was going to post a video, but can't figure out how.

Anyway, I'm watching it, & now it looks almost like normal swimming, but not quite. What it was doing before was different. It was swimming around almost vertically, but not totally, & the whole body was shaking, basically. Now it's horizontally swimming & going up & down, & I don't know, still not exactly like it was before all this.

This is a red tetra - blood tetra or something like that. I have 2. Normally they kinda swim about slowly, sometimes darting around, but not much. This one has been going almost nonstop for days.

I guess I'll just keep watching her. Or him. I can't tell.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I have seen some odd things in tanks over the years where an individual fish had issues. Here are two such similar examples.

In my first tank I had a pair of Trichogaster lalius (Dwarf Gourami}. I was pretty much still a gross newbie then, The tank was a planted 45 gal. community. The male built a bubble nest and there were eggs. I watchrf how any time the female came into view of the male, he attacked her. After a day or two I was coming into the room where the tank was at the opposite end of the door. The male made a move on her and she bolted hard into the glass. This is a small fish and I heard the bang into the glass across the room. Not long after this she was dead.

Fast forward a number of years and I was trying to see a Discus spawn from beginning to when the kids ate slime off the parents. No matter which pair was in the tank, they laid eggs but they were never fertile. I switched males twice. The second time I was sold a male that laid eggs within a week- DOH. This was a 25 gal tank dedicated to a discus pair. It had plants in pots but no substrate. Finally, I gave up hope. I had parked a couple of adult zebra plecos in the tank with the discus. Over time I lost one discus (cause unkown) and the remaining fish was fine. Some weeks later I came into the bathroom where the tank was and I guess I spooked the fish. It swam hard into the glass. But it seemed OK right afterwards.

Not long after I noticed the discus was having difficulty in remaining upright. It seemed fine except for living face down not foward. Ignorant me thought it was swim bladder related and treated for that. It did not help, By this time the injured discus was the only fish in the tank as the zebras got a real home. I kept that discus alive for many months. I am not sure I was right to do this in hindsight, But eventually it died.

The point of these two stories is simple. Had I not actually witnessed the collisions into the glass but only seen the aftereffects, I would have had no idea what was wrong with either fish. The female gourami would just have been alive earlier and suddenly dead without a mark. At least the dixcus lived, albeit nose down. But, I would have made the same wrong guess about the problem and treated it the same way.

As far as I am concerned this hobby is a journey of learnin for those who are interested enough in everything. For some, their fish and tanks do fine almost all the time and none of this ever comes up. For others there are problems to solve when they only have very little experience or knowledge. At the risk of repeating myself, when faced with issues with our fish where we are not certain of what to do, most of us will do the best we can rather than watch fish suffer and die. I would rather make a mistake than do nothing most times. But that is me.

Sometime we are sure a fish will die and it recovers and still we do not know what was wrong or why it is better. Other times we are sure the fish will recover and yet it dies. I currently have 400+ fish in my Tanks (many because I spawn a few species of plecos). I do not tend to lose many fish now, save to age. As I back up in time the numbers were much greater as a % of the total. Most of us tend to improve our fish keeping skills with time.

I do not think we will ever know what is up with the tetra. That is how it goes somethimes. What is important is that the problem is limited and does not affect the other inhabitants of the tank. If it makes you feel better/safer, you can move it to a small H tank if you are able.

 

[Sprinkle]

Please don't add more fish or snails until you figure out what is going on with your fish.

Yeh. Agree